[nycphp-jobs] Re: Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about 5+ yrs of exp &
Ben Sgro
ben at projectskyline.com
Sat Aug 9 16:56:43 EDT 2008
Hello All,
Many interesting points; Been trying to keep up w/them on the mobile.
I did not intend to create an 'event' on the forum - just wanted to
provide my opinion as observed.
Someone noted that I did not go about it the correct way - I'll take
that to heart.
As far as everything else, I love PHP. I love the PHP community. Those
that are doing it a service, I commend.
Those that are doing it a disservice, I have been vocal about.
Either way, its my opinion. Again, I'm not trying to create problems,
though it appears I have.
Next time, I will probably handle the situation a bit differently - or
just say nothing at all (which is bs to me).
- Ben
Thanks to all the private email providing feedback.
Guilherme Blanco wrote:
> And I agree.
>
> I generalized a bit.
> Here in my country (Brazil) for example.... my current income is 3x
> more than the average of the country, but it's around 70% of the price
> of an American programmer with the same skills.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 5:03 PM, Jon Tascher <jontas at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> I just wanted to point out that price does not directly correlate to
>> quality. Although more experienced programmers who (presumably) produce
>> better code will often charge more, this is not always the case and
>> certainly does not translate to the overseas market. I am sure there are
>> many excellent and qualified foreign programmers who are able to charge less
>> than American programmers due to the differences in cost of life. That is
>> the usually a reason for outsourcing overseas. Just because someone is
>> cheap(er) does not necessarily imply inexperience or poor skills.
>> Jon Tascher
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 3:57 PM, <jobs-request at lists.nyphp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Send jobs mailing list submissions to
>>> jobs at lists.nyphp.org
>>>
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>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: Important Info & Request to all members in this forum abt
>>> my initial pos (Guilherme Blanco)
>>> 2. Re: Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about 5+ yrs (Steve Manes)
>>> 3. Re: Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about 5+ yrs of exp &
>>> good client references (Robert Gulian)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 16:09:25 -0300
>>> From: "Guilherme Blanco" <guilhermeblanco at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] Important Info & Request to all members in
>>> this forum abt my initial pos
>>> To: c_sundar_2k1 at yahoo.co.in
>>> Cc: jobs at lists.nyphp.org
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <bcb7aa500808091209q5ec7c65agf97253c6c9977077 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>>
>>> Actually it seems Ben did it wrong.
>>>
>>> None here born with all knowledge, and surely they improved their
>>> skills by working hard to improve themselves while reading,
>>> researching and experimenting.
>>> So, none here has enough words to point a finger on someone else's
>>> face, talk about skills, etc.
>>>
>>> You pay for your code and if you want to pay less, your code will be
>>> less secure, organized, implemented.
>>> That's what differ senior, junior, etc and also good and bad programmers.
>>> I'll never put my money into a 15yrs. old boy that tells me that knows
>>> PHP, since I know I have a great chance to have holes in my code.
>>>
>>> Short version: The amount of money you pay is the code art equivalent you
>>> have.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 3:47 PM, sundar rajan <c_sundar_2k1 at yahoo.co.in>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for all the criticism to my post & the reply sent by Ben.
>>>>
>>>> Actually I never know who this guys Ben is , I have never worked with
>>>> him
>>>> before & ofcourse he is not my client too.
>>>>
>>>> I have been in this freelancing profession for abt 3+ yrs & never got
>>>> such
>>>> criticism from my clients , though I had troubles / faults in the
>>>> project
>>>> that I work with my clients , they use to tell me the changes & I do
>>>> make
>>>> sure to deliver those changes as per the client's requests.
>>>>
>>>> I never leave my clients in trouble with frustration , even though if I
>>>> do
>>>> some mistakes I do admit to my clients & they give me a chance to work
>>>> on it
>>>> & prove it & I have done so.
>>>>
>>>> You all can have a look at my online portfolio at
>>>> http://www.sundarrajan.com
>>>> , besides I have also been member in various freelancing forums & have
>>>> good
>>>> client reference , reputation.
>>>>
>>>> If you all wish to help a fellow programmer like me , just request Ben
>>>> to
>>>> send us what project I worked that had the issues as he said. To the
>>>> best of
>>>> my knowledge I don't think there shud be such projects , but if there
>>>> were
>>>> some issues the client would have got resolved it with me , they
>>>> would'nt
>>>> speak bad abt me to a third party code auditor like Ben (because all the
>>>> clients I have worked were very genuine , pleasant & helpfull in
>>>> nature).
>>>>
>>>> Pls guys never think bad & have a negative impression abt me, due to
>>>> Ben's
>>>> posting , though I'm not located in US , I do work with clients based at
>>>> US
>>>> / UK etc,..
>>>>
>>>> 510.455.4387 this is my US skypein number , you can call me in this
>>>> number
>>>> if you have issues with this post.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder why Ben has posted such critics abt my thread publicly on this
>>>> forum.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway lets wait for a good solution.
>>>>
>>>> --- On Sat, 8/9/08, Sean Fulton <sean at gcnpublishing.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Sean Fulton <sean at gcnpublishing.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about 5+
>>>> yrs
>>>> ofexp & good client references
>>>> To: "Andrew Wint" <wint at socketnet.com>
>>>> Cc: jobs at lists.nyphp.org
>>>> Date: Saturday, August 9, 2008, 9:55 PM
>>>>
>>>> I disagree. This wasn't a former employer complaining about a
>>>> consultant's
>>>> work, this was another consultant, a competitor if you will, stating as
>>>> fact
>>>> something that no one can possibly double-check. I think it's unfair,
>>>> and am
>>>> surprised that, on a list dedicated to helping consultants find jobs,
>>>> you
>>>> folks would not be more concerned about it. I think this is the first
>>>> time I
>>>> have seen someone in a public forum accuse someone of something and not
>>>> be
>>>> called to provide proof of their claims. Very puzzling.
>>>>
>>>> No one knows what the job requirements were, what the client's
>>>> expectations
>>>> were, or what the budget was. Did the client provide enough time and
>>>> budget
>>>> to have the job done right, or did they just say, "Get it done for next
>>>> to
>>>> nothing," and then when they realized the short-sidedness of their
>>>> approach,
>>>> hire Ben to clean up the mess rather than go back to the developer they
>>>> low-balled and admit that they didn't give him enough time and $$ to do
>>>> the
>>>> job correctly. We don't know. Ben won't even tell the list who the
>>>> client
>>>> was or produce evidence of the inferior work. So to my mind, this whole
>>>> thread is quite unfair to the developer who originally posted his
>>>> availability and should be dropped.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, as you read this, please keep in mind that we are a company
>>>> that
>>>> employs people on this list, that's why I subscribe. I have employed
>>>> developers here in the US and in six other countries. I find *no*
>>>> geo-political differences in coding skills. We evaluate developers based
>>>> on
>>>> samples, client references and their ability to follow directions. I
>>>> have
>>>> had more than a few developers who are so focused on developing "great
>>>> code"
>>>> that they completely ignore the project specs, budget and time-lines.
>>>> Those
>>>> people don't last long, but people who follow directions do.
>>>>
>>>> Again, without knowing the original assignment that Sundar was given and
>>>> what went on between he and the client at that time, facts which I doubt
>>>> even Ben knows, we really can't draw any useful conclusions nor should
>>>> we
>>>> try.
>>>>
>>>> Just my $.02.
>>>>
>>>> sean
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Wint wrote:
>>>>
>>>> All he did was to provide transparency, now we are discussing the
>>>> issues.
>>>> Kristina gave very valid points about the 'delivery of crappy code' and
>>>> not
>>>> being able to take action because they are in another country.
>>>> Another point is that this why we have standards of development
>>>> practices,
>>>> these standards shouldn't be compromised they can bend a bit but not
>>>> break.
>>>> Sundar needs to seek them out and adhere to them.
>>>> I know it may seem harsh but it may help Sundar down the line in his
>>>> growth.
>>>> As well as protect a small struggling company, thinking they are saving
>>>> money but falling into a trap.
>>>> Ben did a good thing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 9, 2008, at 10:50 AM, RDP wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry Donna, but I disagree.
>>>>
>>>> It's perfectly fine to express a view about someone's work.
>>>>
>>>> Of course we make errors in our code, everybody does. But you can't
>>>> evaluate experience without examining ones work.
>>>>
>>>> And employers DO give out this information. Especially if an individual
>>>> was
>>>> let go because of inability.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, I'm having a problem imagining rows of unemployed PHP coders
>>>> down
>>>> and out on skid-row in cardboard boxes, homeless, because their work was
>>>> criticized.
>>>>
>>>> Bye,
>>>>
>>>> Rob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Donna Marie Vincent
>>>> To: jobs at lists.nyphp.org
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 9:26 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about 5+
>>>> yrs
>>>> ofexp & good client references
>>>> It's not only unethical to publicly disparage an individual's ability to
>>>> perform a job, you could be subject to legal action.
>>>>
>>>> Have you ever made an error while performing your job duties?
>>>>
>>>> Even a former employer would not give out this type of information. Do
>>>> you
>>>> want to be responsible for someone not getting work, and ending up
>>>> homeless
>>>> on the street, because of your personal opinion about their work, which
>>>> may
>>>> or may not be valid?
>>>>
>>>> This is not the same as publicly criticizing a particular product, or a
>>>> company's business practice.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Sat, 8/9/08, Ben Sgro <ben at projectskyline.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Ben Sgro <ben at projectskyline.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about 5+
>>>> yrs
>>>> of exp & good client references
>>>> To:
>>>> Cc: jobs at lists.nyphp.org
>>>> Date: Saturday, August 9, 2008, 2:17 AM
>>>>
>>>> Hey,
>>>>
>>>> I audited a site this guy built - it was full of holes - SQL injection,
>>>> XSS, default passwords on CMS admin accounts, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Also, the code was PHP4 w/HTML sprinkled all over it, cut and paste, no
>>>> functions. No layouts, templates or
>>>> smarty.
>>>> Basically, impossible and very time consuming to make updates.
>>>>
>>>> Be sure to request some source before you work with him.
>>>>
>>>> - Ben
>>>>
>>>> sundar rajan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi
>>>>>
>>>> ,
>>>>
>>>>> I'm a Freelance Telecommuting PHP/MySQL Programmer with about 5+ yrs
>>>>> of experience in building web applications .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Following are the type of small / contract jobs that I take:
>>>>> /Creating Custom scripts
>>>>> Member signup with email verification & login with session
>>>>>
>>>> authentication
>>>>
>>>>> Dynamic PDF File generation from the database information using FPDF
>>>>> libraries
>>>>> Command line processing of PHP scripts
>>>>> Installing CAPTCHA security code for the forms
>>>>> Google Maps <http://maps.google.com/> API to display a location with
>>>>>
>>>>> pop-up
>>>>>
>>>> info
>>>>
>>>>> XML parsing to database
>>>>> CSV parsing to database
>>>>> RSS feeds using Carp
>>>>> Handling File uploads
>>>>> Generating statistics reports from the database values
>>>>> Generating Graphical reports from the database values
>>>>> Generating Excel download from the database
>>>>>
>>>> values
>>>>
>>>>> Working with complex queries in Mysql console
>>>>> Building application with SEO friendly URLs
>>>>> Installing MySQL , Apache , PHP , SVN , AWStats & software apps in
>>>>> linux boxes
>>>>> /
>>>>> I can also take up bigger projects with proper specification documents
>>>>> along with the UI/HTML prototypes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Checkout my online portfolio at http://www.sundarrajan.com
>>>>> <http://www.sundarrajan.com/> to know more about my skill-set ,
>>>>> experiences , projects as
>>>>>
>>>> well as client references.
>>>>
>>>>> As a verified premier paypal member since 2005 with over 70 seller
>>>>> reputation , I can accept paypal / credit card payments.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please do contact me for further details , if you have any jobs.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> With regards,
>>>>> Sundar
>>>>> Phone: (+1) 510.455.4387
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
>>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>>>>>
>>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>>>>
>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>
>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>>>>
>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>
>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>>>>
>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>
>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>>>>
>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>
>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sean Fulton
>>>> GCN Publishing, Inc.
>>>> Internet Design, Development and Consulting For Today's Media Companies
>>>> http://www.gcnpublishing.com
>>>> (203) 665-6211, x203
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>>>>
>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>
>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>>>>
>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>
>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer
>>> CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant
>>> Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9166-6902
>>> MSN: guilhermeblanco at hotmail.com
>>> URL: http://blog.bisna.com
>>> Rio de Janeiro - RJ/Brazil
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 15:20:38 -0400
>>> From: Steve Manes <smanes at magpie.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about 5+
>>> yrs
>>> To: jobs at lists.nyphp.org
>>> Message-ID: <489DEE06.4090801 at magpie.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>
>>> Kristina Anderson wrote:
>>>
>>>> There are some on this list who've previously said that "the market"
>>>> will take care of situations where people want to pay low wages to
>>>> programmers. One of the ways that "the market" might do this,
>>>> theoretically, is to make sure that people find out the hard way, when
>>>> they hire cheap programmers
>>>>
>>> I'm just not sure that's a lesson that can be learned by singling out
>>> one programmer for critical review. Anyone who's been in this business
>>> for a few years has heard the nightmare outsourcing stories and knows
>>> that the market for software talent works pretty much the same as it
>>> does buying a TV or a hamburger: caveat emptor. If they choose to
>>> ignore it, well, that's who lottery tickets are made for.
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 15:55:29 -0400
>>> From: Robert Gulian <bob.gulian at verizon.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about 5+
>>> yrs of exp & good client references
>>> To: jobs at lists.nyphp.org
>>> Message-ID: <DDA9563C-FCCB-4B3C-893C-54418D09FAF9 at verizon.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Ben,
>>>
>>> Your .02$ may backfire on you. You may have an obligation to your
>>> client to report your opinion but you have an obligation not to report
>>> it to the world at large. I believe it was a bad judgement on your
>>> part and if enough people feel likewise, it may be you who loses work
>>> over it.
>>>
>>> Just my .02$.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On Aug 9, 2008, at 10:12 AM, Ben Sgro wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> It's my .02$. People are free to make their own decision.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 9, 2008, at 9:26 AM, Donna Marie Vincent
>>>> <donnamarievincent at yahoo.com
>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not only unethical to publicly disparage an individual's
>>>>> ability to perform a job, you could be subject to legal action.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you ever made an error while performing your job duties?
>>>>>
>>>>> Even a former employer would not give out this type of
>>>>> information. Do you want to be responsible for someone not getting
>>>>> work, and ending up homeless on the street, because of your
>>>>> personal opinion about their work, which may or may not be valid?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not the same as publicly criticizing a particular product,
>>>>> or a company's business practice.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 8/9/08, Ben Sgro <ben at projectskyline.com> wrote:
>>>>> From: Ben Sgro <ben at projectskyline.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about
>>>>> 5+ yrs of exp & good client references
>>>>> To:
>>>>> Cc: jobs at lists.nyphp.org
>>>>> Date: Saturday, August 9, 2008, 2:17 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey,
>>>>>
>>>>> I audited a site this guy built - it was full of holes - SQL
>>>>> injection,
>>>>> XSS, default passwords on CMS admin accounts, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, the code was PHP4 w/HTML sprinkled all over it, cut and
>>>>> paste, no
>>>>> functions. No layouts, templates or
>>>>> smarty.
>>>>> Basically, impossible and very time consuming to make updates.
>>>>>
>>>>> Be sure to request some source before you work with him.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Ben
>>>>>
>>>>> sundar rajan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>
>>>>> ,
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm a Freelance Telecommuting PHP/MySQL Programmer with about 5+
>>>>>>
>>>>> yrs
>>>>>
>>>>>> of experience in building web applications .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Following are the type of small / contract jobs that I take:
>>>>>> /Creating Custom scripts
>>>>>> Member signup with email verification & login with session
>>>>>>
>>>>> authentication
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dynamic PDF File generation from the database information using
>>>>>>
>>>>> FPDF
>>>>>
>>>>>> libraries
>>>>>> Command line processing of PHP scripts
>>>>>> Installing CAPTCHA security code for the forms
>>>>>> Google Maps <http://maps.google.com/> API to display a location
>>>>>>
>>>>> with
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> pop-up
>>>>>>
>>>>> info
>>>>>
>>>>>> XML parsing to database
>>>>>> CSV parsing to database
>>>>>> RSS feeds using Carp
>>>>>> Handling File uploads
>>>>>> Generating statistics reports from the database values
>>>>>> Generating Graphical reports from the database values
>>>>>> Generating Excel download from the database
>>>>>>
>>>>> values
>>>>>
>>>>>> Working with complex queries in Mysql console
>>>>>> Building application with SEO friendly URLs
>>>>>> Installing MySQL , Apache , PHP , SVN , AWStats & software apps in
>>>>>> linux boxes
>>>>>> /
>>>>>> I can also take up bigger projects with proper specification
>>>>>>
>>>>> documents
>>>>>
>>>>>> along with the UI/HTML prototypes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Checkout my online portfolio at http://www.sundarrajan.com
>>>>>> <http://www.sundarrajan.com/> to know more about my skill-set ,
>>>>>> experiences , projects as
>>>>>>
>>>>> well as client references.
>>>>>
>>>>>> As a verified premier paypal member since 2005 with over 70 seller
>>>>>> reputation , I can accept paypal / credit card payments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please do contact me for further details , if you have any jobs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> With regards,
>>>>>> Sundar
>>>>>> Phone: (+1) 510.455.4387
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
>>>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
>>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>>>>>
>>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
>>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>>>>>
>>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>>>>
>>>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>>>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>>>
>>>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>>>
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>>>
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>>> jobs mailing list
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>>>
>>> End of jobs Digest, Vol 22, Issue 14
>>> ************************************
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>>
>>
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