NYCPHP Meetup

[Scott Gress]

When I get emails from this list, I'm excited to see what new job
opportunities have surfaced.  Can we please stop this thread already?
 Nothing of value has been said in awhile, and every time I open another
email from the list I'm disappointed to see that it's just another response
to "looking for medium size projects".
Thanks
Scott

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 9:19 AM, <jobs-request at lists.nyphp.org> wrote:

> Send jobs mailing list submissions to
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>
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of jobs digest..."
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: looking for medium size projects (pyurt)
>   2. Re: looking for medium size projects (Joseph Crawford)
>   3. Re: looking for medium size projects (gary066 at yahoo.com)
>   4. Re: looking for medium size projects (Paul A Houle)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:55:44 -0700 (PDT)
> From: pyurt <pyurt at yahoo.com>
> To: Steve Manes <smanes at magpie.com>
> Cc: "jobs at lists.nyphp.org" <jobs at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] looking for medium size projects
> Message-ID: <839029.74521.qm at web52209.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Doesn't sound like PHP was mentioned in this posting.
>
> When I hear of packages of this size I think sales not development.
>
> PY
>
> On Aug 27, 2009, at 12:14 AM, Steve Manes <smanes at magpie.com> wrote:
>
> Shahan Avedian wrote:
> I am a technical recuriter based out of the NYC area.   I can tell you
> right now I have jobs paying  150k with 300K total package that we cannot
> find people for right in Manhattan.  The one's that are qualified are all
> working and won't consider it.  I speak to consultants all the time who will
> not get off the sofa unless they get 95.00 per hour.  ( Some would view
> 95.00 as a pay cut).
>
> Interesting.  How come I haven't seen any of these $300k/year and $95/hr
> consulting gigs posted here?
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 15:30:35 -0400
> From: Joseph Crawford <codebowl at gmail.com>
> To: pyurt <pyurt at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "jobs at lists.nyphp.org" <jobs at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] looking for medium size projects
> Message-ID: <4A96DEDB.4040501 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> that is interesting.  for that kind of money i would move to manhattan
> :)  They just don't exist out there from what I have seen.
>
> On 08/27/2009 01:55 PM, pyurt wrote:
> > Doesn't sound like PHP was mentioned in this posting.
> >
> > When I hear of packages of this size I think sales not development.
> >
> > PY
> >
> > On Aug 27, 2009, at 12:14 AM, Steve Manes<smanes at magpie.com>  wrote:
> >
> > Shahan Avedian wrote:
> > I am a technical recuriter based out of the NYC area.   I can tell you
> right now I have jobs paying  150k with 300K total package that we cannot
> find people for right in Manhattan.  The one's that are qualified are all
> working and won't consider it.  I speak to consultants all the time who will
> not get off the sofa unless they get 95.00 per hour.  ( Some would view
> 95.00 as a pay cut).
> >
> > Interesting.  How come I haven't seen any of these $300k/year and $95/hr
> consulting gigs posted here?
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:25:46 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "gary066 at yahoo.com" <gary066 at yahoo.com>
> To: Web <Webmiester at gmail.com>, Chauncey Thorn <chaunceyt at gmail.com>,
>        "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>,
>  Shahan
>        Avedian <savedian at starpoint.com>
> Cc: "jobs at lists.nyphp.org" <jobs at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] looking for medium size projects
> Message-ID: <295982.1920.qm at web32704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> A lot of the 'high paying' jobs are going unfilled because they are in
> reality a big pay cut from consulting, not due to a lack of people. It's the
> free market at work.  I have run my own consulting company for the past 5
> years - generally we have anywhere between 2 and 10 consultants on projects
> depending on business cycle;  I personally have two CS degrees from Carnegie
> Mellon and 15 years experience in Java/J2EE/SOA.  I have been an employee
> for 9 of those years, a consultant for 6 (I still bill myself out). The 150K
> base positions generally result in 60 hour work weeks; no comparison when
> compared to rates that are in the 90-125hr range for every hour.  I have a
> client in another state with a high level architect position paying 150-175
> base.  Getting resumes has been extremely difficult - the problem is not a
> lack of interested people, the problem is they require full time status.
>  That kills the interest.
>
> I have dealt with a lot of PHPers.  I've never had one ask for $95.  They
> know their value in general.
>
> Unions are not the answer (I don't see outsourcing as a problem).  Unions
> are for industries where there is little differentiation in productivity.
>  The difference in productivity between a good and bad developer is orders
> of magnitude.
>
> --- On Wed, 8/26/09, Shahan Avedian <savedian at starpoint.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Shahan Avedian <savedian at starpoint.com>
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] looking for medium size projects
> > To: "Web" <Webmiester at gmail.com>, "Chauncey Thorn" <chaunceyt at gmail.com>,
> "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > Cc: "jobs at lists.nyphp.org" <jobs at lists.nyphp.org>
> > Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2009, 12:04 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I have
> > had several people contact me and I will say here what I
> > said to them.? The 300K package type jobs are not PHP
> > positions.? They are C++/Java/C# positions
> > involved
> >  with developing trading systems.? My point was to
> > illustrate many high paying jobs are sitting unfilled here
> > in NYC simply because there is not enough people to fill
> > them.? These jobs are not being outsourced.? As a
> > recruiter I suffer as much as anyone when
> >  something is outsourced to India..however everytime gets
> > outsourced it seems another skill set is needed here and
> > only.
> >
> >
> > ?
> > Below
> > is the relevant ?excerpt from an article that just
> > appeared in the New York Times? regarding the
> > programmer who was caught stealing from Goldman?. This
> > guy would be
> >  a typical example of what we deal with.? (Hence 300K
> > package is viewed with a yawn).
> >
> >  ?
> > Mr. Aleynikov immigrated to the
> > United States from Russia in 1991. In 1998, he joined IDT a
> > telecommunications company, where he wrote software to route
> > calls and data more efficiently. In 2007, Goldman hired him
> > as a vice president,
> >  paying him $400,000 a year, according to the federal
> > complaint against him?.. This spring, Mr. Aleynikov
> > quit Goldman to join Teza Technologies, a new trading firm,
> > tripling his salary to about $1.2 million, according to the
> > complaint. ?
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/business/24trading.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Goldman%20Sachs%20and%20programmer&st=cse
> >
> > As for Drupal/Php
> > developers..it is absolute true. Like ANY skill set, your
> > going to find people all over the range.? I spoke to
> > enough of them where people commanding that kind
> >  of rate is not an aberration. ?
> > As for you Rob, you can
> > continue to believe in whatever you would like, amazing at
> > how sure you are of yourself.
> >
> > SA
> >
> >  ?
> >  ?
> >  ?
> >
> >
> > From: Web [mailto:webmiester at gmail.com]
> >
> >
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 2:24 PM
> >
> > To: Shahan Avedian; Chauncey Thorn; Kristina D. H.
> > Anderson
> >
> > Cc: jobs at lists.nyphp.org
> >
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] looking for medium size
> > projects
> >
> >
> >  ?
> >
> > Shahan,
> >
> >
> > ?
> >
> >
> > For some reason I just
> > don't believe you.? Sorry.? Your email is
> > nonsense.
> >
> >
> > ?
> >
> >
> > ?
> >
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >
> > ?
> >
> >
> > ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ?
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> > Shahan Avedian
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:51
> > AM
> >
> >
> > To:
> > Chauncey Thorn ;
> >
> > Kristina D. H. Anderson
> >
> >
> > Cc:
> > jobs at lists.nyphp.org
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] looking for
> > medium size projects
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  ?
> >
> > I am a technical
> > recuriter based out of the NYC area.?? I can tell
> > you right now I have jobs paying? 150k with 300K total
> > package that we cannot find people
> >  for right in Manhattan.? The one's that are
> > qualified are all working and won't consider it. ?I
> > speak to consultants all the time who will not get off the
> > sofa unless they get 95.00 per hour. ?( Some would view
> > 95.00 as a pay cut). ??It all comes down to skill
> >  set. ?For every job that is being
> > offshored?there are other jobs cannot be offshored nor
> > is there any intention of being offshored.
> >
> >  ?
> > Just recently I was
> > looking for Strong PHP/Drupal developer?cannot tell
> > you how many people I spoke who just wouldn't consider a
> > job unless they got paid
> >  $100.00 per hour.?? Offshoring is hear to
> > stay?its not just in the computer programming
> > world.? If companies can get the same thing done at a
> > cheaper rate its going to go abroad.? If they need a
> > real heavy hitter its going to stay here. ?The sooner
> > people
> >  stop viewing themselves as victims and focus on what you
> > have control over the quicker you will solve your
> > problems.? I can tell you first hand there are whole
> > classes of programmers who don't share these
> > views.?
> >
> >  ?
> > SA
> >  ?
> >
> > From: jobs-bounces at lists.nyphp.org
> > [mailto:jobs-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
> > On Behalf Of Chauncey Thorn
> >
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:46 PM
> >
> > To: Kristina D. H. Anderson
> >
> > Cc: jobs at lists.nyphp.org
> >
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] looking for medium size
> > projects
> >
> >  ?
> > I'm
> > not sure a Union would solve the problem. I've been
> > exposed to a number of Union workers and they become very
> > complacent knowing that they going to be making the same
> > regardless. I feel this could de-value
> >  the profession.
> >
> >
> >
> > CT
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 7:02 PM,
> > Kristina D. H. Anderson <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> > wrote:
> > I for one am grateful to see the
> > passionate opinions being voiced
> >
> > here. ?In an industry where so much is expected of us
> > in terms of
> >
> > knowledge and commitment, and which has been subjected like
> > no other
> >
> > profession to the forces of "globalization" (i.e.
> > wage reduction), we
> >
> > do need to consider, really, how offensive it truly is that
> > anyone
> >
> > feels our work is worth "minimum wage".
> >
> >
> >
> > And we are subjected to insulting stereotypes which hold
> > that "computer
> >
> > geeks" enjoy their work too much to care about what
> > they get paid, or
> >
> > that all we need are some old T-shirts and some cold pizza
> > and we are
> >
> > good to go...and how much can that cost? ?Please,
> > programmers are not
> >
> > all the same, and some even have families they need to
> > support, or
> >
> > possibly even other goals besides spending the rest of
> > their lives
> >
> > toiling over a hot text editor for practically no
> > money...*GASP*.
> >
> >
> >
> > This all comes back to the issue that I feel is at the core
> > of
> >
> > things...the lack of licensing or credentialling
> > organizations in our
> >
> > field that would perform the core functions that they do in
> > other
> >
> > industries...namely to maintain a certain exclusivity of
> > talent and to
> >
> > fight against economic pressures seeking to dampen wage or
> > salary rates
> >
> > in our industry. ?Or a programmer's union that
> > could mandate that the
> >
> > MINIMUM hourly rate for any union programmer is $40 or $50
> > or whatever
> >
> > they decide on...and make it hard on companies that
> > don't use union
> >
> > programmers...or whatever the solution might be.
> >
> >
> >
> > I feel that attempting to take work away from NYC
> > programmers by
> >
> > undercutting our billing rates to the tune of 8 DOLLARS AN
> > HOUR should
> >
> > be explicitly prohibited on this list, because it IS
> > offensive, and
> >
> > even potentially harmful.
> >
> >
> >
> > Happy coding everyone,
> >
> >
> >
> > Kristina
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Folks,
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I was not trying to be rude or disrespectful to the
> > person who posted
> >
> > the
> >
> > > advertisement. ?I monitor the list for Jobs in
> > NYC to see what
> >
> > employers are
> >
> > > looking for. Seeing someone posting an Ad for what is
> > .75 above
> >
> > minimum wage
> >
> > > here. ?I have ZERO desire to compete with those
> > prices regardless of
> >
> > the
> >
> > > state of the application after developed.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I've been developing PHP application for over 7
> > year and my base
> >
> > price is 8
> >
> > > times the lowest they would take to develop an
> > application. I'm sure
> >
> > there
> >
> > > are other PHP developer here in NYC that are in the
> > same boat. Why
> >
> > would we
> >
> > > want those types of Ads.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I'm sure there are some skilled PHP developers in
> > India that are
> >
> > willing to
> >
> > > write applications for 8-15 USD. But no skilled PHP
> > developer in the
> >
> > NY is
> >
> > > going to work for those prices and I spoke up to halt
> > the competition.
> >
> > > Nothing personal (and I mean that)
> >
> > >
> >
> > > To be honest I didn't really have a problem with
> > the Ad but when it
> >
> > said 8 -
> >
> > > 15 USD. I couldn't let it slide.
> >
> > > When it comes to "*jobs*" I only care if PHP
> > recruiters and/or
> >
> > developers in
> >
> > > NYC benefit from this list and that message didn't
> > benefit anyone in
> >
> > NYC.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Thanks.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Paul A Houle <paul at devonianfarm.com>
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > > Web wrote:
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >> I would share this with my friends but I
> > don't have any friends in
> >
> > India.
> >
> > > >> ?Nor do I get work from India.
> >
> > > >> ?That's why I'm on this NEW YORK
> > PHP list. ?For New York PHP
> >
> > jobs. ?NEW
> >
> > > >> YORK!
> >
> > > >> ?Start your own IndiaPHP list.
> >
> > > >> ?Thank you,
> >
> > > >>
> >
> > > >>
> >
> > > > ? People in India don't get work from
> > India. ?A big drop in the
> >
> > dollar
> >
> > > > would be good because it would bring jobs back to
> > the US and
> >
> > encourage other
> >
> > > > countries to develop balanced local markets in
> > goods and services.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > ? There are some world-class organizations
> > in India, ?and there are
> >
> > a lot
> >
> > > > of smaller ones that aren't so good.
> > ?Overall, ?India tends to
> >
> > underprice
> >
> > > > software development work (and other white
> > collar) done in the US
> >
> > by about
> >
> > > > 2/3. ?In the better cases, ?you're
> > paying for more people and for
> >
> > people to
> >
> > > > manage the extra people, ?and get good
> > results. ?In the worst
> >
> > cases, ?you
> >
> > > > just get ripped.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> >
> > > > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
> >
> > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >
> > > > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >
> > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
> > > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > --
> >
> > > Chauncey Thorn
> >
> > > PHP Developer/Systems Administrator
> >
> > > email: chaunceyt at gmail.com
> >
> > > url: http://www.cthorn.com/
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
> >
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
> >
> >
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Chauncey Thorn
> >
> > PHP Developer/Systems Administrator
> >
> > email: chaunceyt at gmail.com
> >
> > url: http://www.cthorn.com/
> >
> >  ?
> >
> >
> >
> > Since 1982, Starpoint
> > Solutions has been a trusted source of human capital and
> > solutions. We are committed to our clients, employees,
> >  environment, community and social concerns. We foster an
> > inclusive culture based on trust, respect, honesty and solid
> > performance. Learn more about Starpoint and our social
> > responsibility at
> > http://www.starpoint.com/social_responsibility
> >
> >
> >
> > This email message from
> > Starpoint Solutions LLC is for the sole use of the intended
> > recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged
> > information. Any unauthorized
> >  review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If
> > you are not the intended recipient, please contact the
> > sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original
> > message. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this
> > message that do not relate
> >  to the official business of Starpoint Solutions shall be
> > understood as neither given nor endorsed by it.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
> >
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
> >
> >
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> >
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> >
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Since 1982,
> > Starpoint Solutions has been a trusted source of human
> > capital and solutions. We are committed to our clients,
> > employees, environment, community and social concerns. We
> > foster an inclusive culture based
> >  on trust, respect, honesty and solid performance. Learn
> > more about Starpoint and our social responsibility at
> > http://www.starpoint.com/social_responsibility
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This email message
> > from Starpoint Solutions LLC is for the sole use of the
> > intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and
> > privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use,
> > disclosure or distribution is prohibited.
> >  If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the
> > sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original
> > message. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this
> > message that do not relate to the official business of
> > Starpoint Solutions shall
> >  be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 10:19:49 -0400
> From: Paul A Houle <paul at devonianfarm.com>
> To: "gary066 at yahoo.com" <gary066 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "jobs at lists.nyphp.org" <jobs at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] looking for medium size projects
> Message-ID: <4A97E785.3060104 at devonianfarm.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> gary066 at yahoo.com wrote:
> > A lot of the 'high paying' jobs are going unfilled because they are in
> reality a big pay cut from consulting, not due to a lack of people. It's the
> free market at work.  I have run my own consulting company for the past 5
> years - generally we have anywhere between 2 and 10 consultants on projects
> depending on business cycle;  I personally have two CS degrees from Carnegie
> Mellon and 15 years experience in Java/J2EE/SOA.  I have been an employee
> for 9 of those years, a consultant for 6 (I still bill myself out). The 150K
> base positions generally result in 60 hour work weeks; no comparison when
> compared to rates that are in the 90-125hr range for every hour.  I have a
> client in another state with a high level architect position paying 150-175
> base.  Getting resumes has been extremely difficult - the problem is not a
> lack of interested people, the problem is they require full time status.
>  That kills the interest.
> >
> > I have dealt with a lot of PHPers.  I've never had one ask for $95.  They
> know their value in general.
> >
> > Unions are not the answer (I don't see outsourcing as a problem).  Unions
> are for industries where there is little differentiation in productivity.
>  The difference in productivity between a good and bad developer is orders
> of magnitude.
> >
> >
>    I used to believe that thing about developer productivity,  but now
> I don't.
>
>    The environment in which you are working has a big effect on your
> productivity.  If you're developing command-line batch processing
> scripts,  and the requirements are well known,  you can be 10x more
> productive than you can be in a project where you get useless
> requirements documents,  need to argue with your boss to get to talk to
> the customers to revisit the spec,  then leave ten phone messages for
> the customers,  finally get to talk to them,  have a good conversation
> about the specs -- then they call you back an hour later and you need to
> explain the business process model that you worked out again.  Then
> there's the week it takes to go back and forth with the GUI designer,  etc.
>
>    Early studies in software engineering showed that "coding" is about
> 1/5 of the time it takes to design an app:  you've also got testing,
> deployment,  requirements work, and design.  Even if you could eliminate
> the coding time to zero with some supercompiler or by hiring a
> superdeveloper,  you're still left with 4/5 of the time consumed by
> other activities.
>
>    We've all encountered "superproductive" developers whose MO is to do
> the 20% of the work that gets 80% of the results,  and then split town.
> A developer who's got a lot more skill and really understands what it
> takes to get things into production ends up looking like a plodding
> idiot in comparison,  because they're the ones who have to normalize the
> database tables,  add the "htmlspecialchars()" so that the app isn't
> busted when somebody types a quote into a form field,  deal with
> cross-browser issues and all the other stuff that takes a lot of time.
> The "plodder" knows perfectly well that the app would have been better
> off it building it in a framework,  but got involved too late in the
> game to really make that move.
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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> End of jobs Digest, Vol 34, Issue 19
> ************************************
>
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