From eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com Wed May 2 11:29:16 2012 From: eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com (Eugenio Tacchini) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 17:29:16 +0200 Subject: [nycphp-talk] un-escape db content using php or ADOdb functions Message-ID: Hi, I've read your interesting article: http://www.nyphp.org/phundamentals/5_Storing-Data-Submitted-Form-Displaying-Database I have a couple of questions about the function fix_magic_quotes: 1) Why do you disable magic_quotes_gpc and magic_quotes_sybase via ini_set? Fixing the content escaped by magic quotes should be enough in my opinion, am I wrong? 2) As far as I know, stripslashes is affected by magic_quotes_sybase, s if magic_quotes_sybase is on, both addslashes and stripslashes work in a sybase-style way. For this reason I don't think you need to use str_replace. And finally a more general question: are you aware of any method for un-escaping content based on db-specific escape function? I mean something kuje stripslashes but specific so: the counterpart of addslashes is stripslashes, is there any counterpart for mysql_escape_string or for the adodb function qstr or the PDO quote function? I know that, in an ideal world, we don't need them but if an application has been build using a "escape everything" approach and you need to work with that, you need to unescape content when you don't use it in a query and stripslashes doesn't work if you switch from addslashes to something like adodb->qstr. Thanks in advance. Cheers, ------------------ Eugenio Tacchini dadabik.org DaDaBIK database front-end From rainelemental at gmail.com Wed May 2 12:17:35 2012 From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Federico Ulfo) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 12:17:35 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] un-escape db content using php or ADOdb functions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The article you mentioned is from April 2004, so I could not rely on that. Starting from PHP 5.4 magic_quotes_gpc has been removed http://php.net/releases/5_4_0.php Also since PHP 5, the best way to go is to use PDO prepared statements, which avoid any double escaping and allows you to connect to different database, so you don't really need anymore Adodb. If your database has escaped contents, you can either run a REPLACE query (to solve definitely the problem on the database) or as you well said use stripslashes, or a custom function, it depends what you escaped! Also that I know mysql_real_escape_string it doesn't have any reverse function, but if you look at the doc, somebody wrote a reverse_escape for it: http://php.net/manual/en/function.mysql-real-escape-string.php Hope this was helpful :) Federico On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Eugenio Tacchini < eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > I've read your interesting article: > > http://www.nyphp.org/phundamentals/5_Storing-Data-Submitted-Form-Displaying-Database > > I have a couple of questions about the function fix_magic_quotes: > 1) Why do you disable magic_quotes_gpc and magic_quotes_sybase via > ini_set? Fixing the content escaped by magic quotes should be enough > in my opinion, am I wrong? > > 2) As far as I know, stripslashes is affected by magic_quotes_sybase, > s if magic_quotes_sybase is on, both addslashes and stripslashes work > in a sybase-style way. For this reason I don't think you need to use > str_replace. > > And finally a more general question: are you aware of any method for > un-escaping content based on db-specific escape function? I mean > something kuje stripslashes but specific so: the counterpart of > addslashes is stripslashes, is there any counterpart for > mysql_escape_string or for the adodb function qstr or the PDO quote > function? > I know that, in an ideal world, we don't need them but if an > application has been build using a "escape everything" approach and > you need to work with that, you need to unescape content when you > don't use it in a query and stripslashes doesn't work if you switch > from addslashes to something like adodb->qstr. > > Thanks in advance. > > Cheers, > > ------------------ > Eugenio Tacchini > > dadabik.org DaDaBIK database front-end > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com Wed May 2 13:08:53 2012 From: eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com (Eugenio Tacchini) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 19:08:53 +0200 Subject: [nycphp-talk] un-escape db content using php or ADOdb functions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2012/5/2 Federico Ulfo : > The?article you mentioned is from April 2004, so I could not rely on that. > > Starting from PHP 5.4 magic_quotes_gpc has been removed > http://php.net/releases/5_4_0.php > > Also since PHP 5, the best way to go is to use PDO prepared statements, > which avoid any double escaping and allows you to connect to different > database, so you don't really need anymore Adodb. Hi Federico and thanks for your reply. I know that magic_quotes_gpc has been removed but I bet that most of the PHP installations use PHP < 5.4. As far as PDO is concerned, yes, I'm using PDO as well. > If your database has escaped contents, you can either run a REPLACE query > (to solve definitely the problem on the database) or as you well said use > stripslashes, or a custom function, it depends what you escaped! No the database has not any escaped contents, the problem is an application, which, instead of escaping just the content that needed to be used in a query it: - escaped everything from GPC, using addslashes - unescaped content coming from GPC when the content itself needs to be just displayed, using stripslashes It worked pretty good but I then switched from addslashes to db specific functions (namely adodb qstr and PDO quote), the problem is that stripslashes of course doesn't work anymore and I don't find a general approach for unescaping (I read the comment on http://php.net/manual/en/function.mysql-real-escape-string.php but it seems more a hack than a general solution). Now, I'm wondering if the DB specific escape functions really give additional values respect to addslashes. This is what you can read on the PHP Web site but if you read here: http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.5/en/mysql-real-escape-string.html "Characters encoded are ?\?, ?'?, ?"?, NUL (ASCII 0), ?\n?, ?\r?, and Control+Z. Strictly speaking, MySQL requires only that backslash and the quote character used to quote the string in the query be escaped. mysql_real_escape_string() quotes the other characters to make them easier to read in log files." it seems that, if we are talking about queris execution, just \ and ' needs to be escaped. What do you think about? ------------------ Eugenio Tacchini dadabik.org DaDaBIK database front-end From rmarscher at beaffinitive.com Wed May 2 13:26:22 2012 From: rmarscher at beaffinitive.com (Rob Marscher) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 13:26:22 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] un-escape db content using php or ADOdb functions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44FF27DC-611F-4673-BE40-06D33EC70EDC@beaffinitive.com> On May 2, 2012, at 1:08 PM, Eugenio Tacchini wrote: > Now, I'm wondering if the DB specific escape functions really give > additional values respect to addslashes. Chris Shiflett's article from 2006 had the best argument I've seen on why addslashes is not enough to secure your code. http://shiflett.org/blog/2006/jan/addslashes-versus-mysql-real-escape-string Keep a copy of your unescaped data. Escape it for inserting into the database. Then take the original unescaped data and do what else you need with it. If you're ouputting to html, you need to run something like the following on each variable you output: echo htmlspecialchars((string) $var, ENT_QUOTES, 'UTF-8'); From rainelemental at gmail.com Wed May 2 13:34:32 2012 From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Federico Ulfo) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 13:34:32 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] un-escape db content using php or ADOdb functions In-Reply-To: <44FF27DC-611F-4673-BE40-06D33EC70EDC@beaffinitive.com> References: <44FF27DC-611F-4673-BE40-06D33EC70EDC@beaffinitive.com> Message-ID: All you want to escape for MySql is ' and \. In javascript you have to consider also double quote " and new line \n, which is equivalent to use semicolon ; In HTML you want also to be secure from XSS, so you want to use htmlspecialchars (as Rob said). Anyway, I'm not sure I understood your problem, so I strongly recommend to deactivate GPC, which you can do from php.ini, or by stripslashing the input variables: http://php.net/manual/en/security.magicquotes.disabling.php Instead if your contents is already escaped and your problem is to un-escape, try to understand how is escaped, then str_replace or preg_replace will do the job! And yes, they are workaround :) On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 1:26 PM, Rob Marscher wrote: > > On May 2, 2012, at 1:08 PM, Eugenio Tacchini wrote: > > Now, I'm wondering if the DB specific escape functions really give > > additional values respect to addslashes. > > Chris Shiflett's article from 2006 had the best argument I've seen on why > addslashes is not enough to secure your code. > > http://shiflett.org/blog/2006/jan/addslashes-versus-mysql-real-escape-string > > Keep a copy of your unescaped data. Escape it for inserting into the > database. Then take the original unescaped data and do what else you need > with it. If you're ouputting to html, you need to run something like the > following on each variable you output: > > echo htmlspecialchars((string) $var, ENT_QUOTES, 'UTF-8'); > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bulk at zaunere.com Wed May 2 13:39:58 2012 From: bulk at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 13:39:58 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] un-escape db content using php or ADOdb functions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <023f01cd288a$985493d0$c8fdbb70$@zaunere.com> Hi, > Hi, > I've read your interesting article: > http://www.nyphp.org/phundamentals/5_Storing-Data-Submitted-Form-Displaying- Database Ahh, an oldie but a goodie :) > I have a couple of questions about the function fix_magic_quotes: > 1) Why do you disable magic_quotes_gpc and magic_quotes_sybase via > ini_set? Fixing the content escaped by magic quotes should be enough > in my opinion, am I wrong? magic_* anything is a bad idea - it's an infamous mistake that PHP made. Explicitly escape what you need, based on the destination the data is going to. > 2) As far as I know, stripslashes is affected by magic_quotes_sybase, > s if magic_quotes_sybase is on, both addslashes and stripslashes work > in a sybase-style way. For this reason I don't think you need to use > str_replace. For databases (MySQL in particular), you must always use the database specific escaping. This means mysql_real_escape_string(). This is because of character encoding. > And finally a more general question: are you aware of any method for > un-escaping content based on db-specific escape function? I mean > something kuje stripslashes but specific so: the counterpart of > addslashes is stripslashes, is there any counterpart for > mysql_escape_string or for the adodb function qstr or the PDO quote > function? > I know that, in an ideal world, we don't need them but if an > application has been build using a "escape everything" approach and > you need to work with that, you need to unescape content when you > don't use it in a query and stripslashes doesn't work if you switch > from addslashes to something like adodb->qstr. Yes, you should never need to "unescape" what you read from a database. And the problem you're facing here, is exactly why you should use the MySQL escaping functions, rather than generic magic_*, addslashes, etc. If you've inherited an application that does this, then it could be painful. If it were me, I'd first run a script/process to clean up the existing data as best as possible, and get away from these bad escaping practices. Then code the rest of the application correctly, using MySQL's real_escape() function. H From eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com Wed May 2 14:20:34 2012 From: eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com (Eugenio Tacchini) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 20:20:34 +0200 Subject: [nycphp-talk] un-escape db content using php or ADOdb functions In-Reply-To: <44FF27DC-611F-4673-BE40-06D33EC70EDC@beaffinitive.com> References: <44FF27DC-611F-4673-BE40-06D33EC70EDC@beaffinitive.com> Message-ID: 2012/5/2 Rob Marscher : > > On May 2, 2012, at 1:08 PM, Eugenio Tacchini wrote: >> Now, I'm wondering if the DB specific escape functions really give >> additional values respect to addslashes. > > Chris Shiflett's article from 2006 had the best argument I've seen on why addslashes is not enough to secure your code. > http://shiflett.org/blog/2006/jan/addslashes-versus-mysql-real-escape-string I was following a discussion on stackoverflow and I actually ended up reading exactly that article. I think it's a very good article and yes, he explained the advantage of using mysql-real-escape-string. However, like most of the examples on sql injections I have read, it focus on a user authentication query which (at least the way I use to code) I don't think could be affected. Maybe I'm wrong but when I execute a query looking for a user, I always check if the result is just one row (as expected), if not I produce an error. I am sure there are other examples in which the use of addslashes would be dangerous though. > Keep a copy of your unescaped data. ?Escape it for inserting into the database. ?Then take the original unescaped data and do what else you need with it. ?If you're ouputting to html, you need to run something like the following on each variable you output: > > echo htmlspecialchars((string) $var, ENT_QUOTES, 'UTF-8'); Yes, I know this is the best practice but changing an old application is not easy so I was trying to find something having less code impact. Cheers, ------------------ Eugenio Tacchini dadabik.org DaDaBIK database front-end From eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com Wed May 2 14:23:26 2012 From: eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com (Eugenio Tacchini) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 20:23:26 +0200 Subject: [nycphp-talk] un-escape db content using php or ADOdb functions In-Reply-To: References: <44FF27DC-611F-4673-BE40-06D33EC70EDC@beaffinitive.com> Message-ID: 2012/5/2 Federico Ulfo : > All you want to escape for MySql is ' and \. > In javascript you have to consider also double quote " and new line \n, > which is equivalent to use semicolon ; > In HTML you want also to be secure from XSS, so you want to use > htmlspecialchars (as Rob said). > > Anyway, I'm not sure I understood your problem, so I strongly recommend to > deactivate GPC, which you can do from php.ini, or by stripslashing the input > variables: > http://php.net/manual/en/security.magicquotes.disabling.php > > Instead if your contents is already escaped and your problem is to > un-escape, try to understand how is escaped, then str_replace or > preg_replace will do the job! Yes, that's one point, it's not always clear what the escape functions did (unless you don't want to look inside the PHP source code) :) ------------------ Eugenio Tacchini dadabik.org DaDaBIK database front-end From eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com Wed May 2 14:25:44 2012 From: eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com (Eugenio Tacchini) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 20:25:44 +0200 Subject: [nycphp-talk] un-escape db content using php or ADOdb functions In-Reply-To: <023f01cd288a$985493d0$c8fdbb70$@zaunere.com> References: <023f01cd288a$985493d0$c8fdbb70$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: 2012/5/2 Hans Zaunere : > If you've inherited an application that does this, then it could be painful. Yes, that's the point :) ------------------ Eugenio Tacchini dadabik.org DaDaBIK database front-end From arzala at gmail.com Wed May 2 23:59:21 2012 From: arzala at gmail.com (Anirudhsinh Zala) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 09:29:21 +0530 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web and Mobile Video Codecs In-Reply-To: <0e7101cd23dd$94c622d0$be526870$@zaunere.com> References: <0e7101cd23dd$94c622d0$be526870$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: <201205030929.21516.arzala@gmail.com> On Friday 27 April 2012 00:21:24 Hans Zaunere wrote: > Hi all, > > Thought this would be useful in unraveling the "web" of video "standards" > out there: > > http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/03/14/mozilla_considers_h264_video_s > upport_after_googles_vp8_fails_to_gain_traction.html The whole charm of using common multmedia standards (specially playing videos) in HTML5 is spoiled now since different browsers support different codecs. So either you have to keep 2 or 3 copies of each video or forced to use Flash format. Following is link about various video formats, standards and their support in various browsers http://diveintohtml5.info/video.html Anirudh Zala > > --- > H. Zaunere > > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > From petros.ziogas at gmail.com Thu May 3 05:29:37 2012 From: petros.ziogas at gmail.com (Petros Ziogas) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 12:29:37 +0300 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web and Mobile Video Codecs In-Reply-To: <201205030929.21516.arzala@gmail.com> References: <0e7101cd23dd$94c622d0$be526870$@zaunere.com> <201205030929.21516.arzala@gmail.com> Message-ID: What companies like Mozilla fail to consider is that by dancing around video formats and standards all they do is kill the little guys. Running anything video related knowdays seems to have too many side costs to even dream of making it profitable. Unless you are Hulu or netflix of course. They should decide on a format (whatever that is) and stick to it for at least 5 years. Then find an alternative, since I assume there will be a much better one, and move on keeping backwards compatibility. If I can download a free media player that plays everyvideo out there, I would except the latest Firefox to do the same. At least the popular formats. Petros Ziogas On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Anirudhsinh Zala wrote: > On Friday 27 April 2012 00:21:24 Hans Zaunere wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Thought this would be useful in unraveling the "web" of video "standards" > > out there: > > > > > http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/03/14/mozilla_considers_h264_video_s > > upport_after_googles_vp8_fails_to_gain_traction.html > > The whole charm of using common multmedia standards (specially playing > videos) in HTML5 is spoiled now since different browsers support different > codecs. So either you have to keep 2 or 3 copies of each video or forced to > use Flash format. > > Following is link about various video formats, standards and their support > in various browsers > > http://diveintohtml5.info/video.html > > Anirudh Zala > > > > > --- > > H. Zaunere > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ramons at gmx.net Thu May 3 07:35:15 2012 From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings) Date: Thu, 03 May 2012 07:35:15 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web and Mobile Video Codecs In-Reply-To: References: <0e7101cd23dd$94c622d0$be526870$@zaunere.com> <201205030929.21516.arzala@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FA26D73.8030706@gmx.net> On 5/3/2012 5:29 AM, Petros Ziogas wrote: > What companies like Mozilla fail to consider is that by dancing around video > formats and standards all they do is kill the little guys. > Hi! The reason for Mozilla's dance was that they wanted a video codec to be added to HTML5 that is royalty free so that the codec required by HTML5 is as open as the standard itself. But first Apple and then Microsoft were strictly against that and as usual for monetary reasons. I agree that finally picking any one codec is needed, although I'd liked that this doesn't become as a barrier of entrance for any new browser vendors. Because they now need to pay up in order to support that codec. In all that discussion always keep in mind that HTML5 is NOT an approved standard. So why get all worked up about things that aren't even final yet. I know that reality is different. The major browser vendors already implemented their own interpretation of partial HTML5, which is right back to the 'works only on browser X' problems of the past. I blame the standards for that, because they (intentionally) only describe the markup, but not the end result. As you already pointed out, if you want something to look and work the same in every browser use Flash. Unfortunately, Flash got a bad rap over the years, partially self-inflicted, but mainly because irresponsible web designers plastered page after page with Flash. Silverlight never got off the ground and is all but canned by Microsoft. Fast forward a year or two when Flash is banned and all you got are a bag of screws called HTML5 we will also say goodbye to RIA and cloud apps. That change is already done in the mobile area, there you mainly find only fat clients. Even popular 'cloud' services require you to download a client app. As far as ease of use and user experience we are currently making big steps backwards. David From chsnyder at gmail.com Thu May 3 11:05:12 2012 From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 11:05:12 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web and Mobile Video Codecs In-Reply-To: <4FA26D73.8030706@gmx.net> References: <0e7101cd23dd$94c622d0$be526870$@zaunere.com> <201205030929.21516.arzala@gmail.com> <4FA26D73.8030706@gmx.net> Message-ID: On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 7:35 AM, David Krings wrote: > That change is already done in the mobile > area, there you mainly find only fat clients. Even popular 'cloud' services > require you to download a client app. How many of those fat clients are just wrappers around an HTML5 app? Phonegap gets a lot of love for making that possible in a cross-platform way. Be as pessimistic as you like about HTML5, but the reality is that it is already possible to use it to create full-featured and powerful RIA and cloud apps. It's just much easier to market and sell those apps to the masses when you take the extra step of converting them to native apps for listing in the various vendor app stores. And for the vast majority of apps, which will never sell (think corporate and/or free as in freedom), you never even need to think about native, because HTML5 is already native to every device you care about. It already has a wider installed base than Flash or Silverlight could ever hope for! From chsnyder at gmail.com Fri May 4 08:28:33 2012 From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 08:28:33 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP + mod_cgi - serious vulnerability Message-ID: Is anyone here still running PHP using mod_cgi on Apache? If so, you need to read this: http://www.php.net/archive/2012.php#id2012-05-03-1 The vulnerability gives an attacker access to your source code, which may reveal database passwords or implementation details that lead to further, more serious attacks. Cheers, Chris Snyder http://chxor.chxo.com/ From justin.demaris at gmail.com Mon May 7 08:04:58 2012 From: justin.demaris at gmail.com (Justin Demaris) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 08:04:58 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Next Meeting Poll and PHP Usage Statistics In-Reply-To: References: <001201cd11f1$f8da0280$ea8e0780$@zaunere.com> <050401cd1696$413b4040$c3b1c0c0$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: I'd like to put a plug in for the Optimization in PHP one. 50% of my job lately has been optimization and I'd love to hear more information about it! On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Tom Sartain wrote: > On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Hans Zaunere wrote: > >> Anyone want to give feedback on which talk for this month (below)? Come >> on >> - we can't all know everything already :) >> >> H >> >> >> > And now to collect some statistics of our own. NYPHP speaking >> super-star >> > Anthony Ferrara will be returning in the coming months, and we have the >> > opportunity to pick from the following topics: >> > >> > STUPID and SOLID code: >> > http://nikic.github.com/2011/12/27/Dont-be-STUPID-GRASP-SOLID.html >> > > +1 for this one > > >> > >> > becoming a better developer: >> > http://blog.ircmaxell.com/2011/11/becoming-better-developer.html >> > >> > optimization strategies in PHP >> > starting with >> http://blog.ircmaxell.com/2011/08/on-optimization-in-php.html >> > and going into strategies and techniques >> > >> > real-world applications of design patterns >> > http://blog.ircmaxell.com/2012/03/handling-plugins-in-php.html >> > >> > PHP's internals, as a primer guide >> > >> http://blog.ircmaxell.com/2012/03/phps-source-code-for-php-developers.html >> > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From justin.demaris at gmail.com Mon May 7 08:16:50 2012 From: justin.demaris at gmail.com (Justin Demaris) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 08:16:50 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database Abstraction / ORM Message-ID: Hello PHP Talkers, How do you guys feel about ORM systems and other database abstraction layers? I've been working a lot lately with an older version of Kohana (fun!) and doing a lot of performance optimization. A good chunk of improvement has come out of removing reliance on the old Kohana ORM and replacing it with simple mysqli calls. Is there any ORM system out there that just does it right? Namely, I'd be looking for things like: 1) When I instantiate an object by it's ID multiple times, it doesn't bother to hit up the database after the first time, but just keeps giving me copies of the same object 2) Lazy load the object values. There are a number of patterns where I've seen people instantiate a bunch of objects and then only use a small subset of them. It would be nice if the object only loaded the data when we try to reference one of its non-ID properties. 3) Ability to tweak the back end to work with other database systems (especially Riak, Mongo and Cassandra) I have had really good luck in the past working with Yii and integrating with Redis to use their Active Record structure, but I'm not sure of the performance there. Also, I've been hearing a lot about Doctrine 2 lately and the necessity of having an extra Data Mapper layer in the middle that separates the classes and properties from the fields and tables that store the data. Let me know what you guys have experienced, and no pressure since this decision is probably going to affect my sleep and happiness for a few years!! ;) ~ Justin DeMaris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rainelemental at gmail.com Mon May 7 08:28:25 2012 From: rainelemental at gmail.com (federico ulfo) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 08:28:25 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database Abstraction / ORM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <-674697458770260990@unknownmsgid> I suggest to take a look to red bean, is impressive how easy it is and right now has one of the most active community! http://redbeanphp.com Sent from my iPhone On May 7, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Justin Demaris wrote: > Hello PHP Talkers, > > How do you guys feel about ORM systems and other database abstraction layers? I've been working a lot lately with an older version of Kohana (fun!) and doing a lot of performance optimization. A good chunk of improvement has come out of removing reliance on the old Kohana ORM and replacing it with simple mysqli calls. Is there any ORM system out there that just does it right? Namely, I'd be looking for things like: > > 1) When I instantiate an object by it's ID multiple times, it doesn't bother to hit up the database after the first time, but just keeps giving me copies of the same object > > 2) Lazy load the object values. There are a number of patterns where I've seen people instantiate a bunch of objects and then only use a small subset of them. It would be nice if the object only loaded the data when we try to reference one of its non-ID properties. > > 3) Ability to tweak the back end to work with other database systems (especially Riak, Mongo and Cassandra) > > I have had really good luck in the past working with Yii and integrating with Redis to use their Active Record structure, but I'm not sure of the performance there. Also, I've been hearing a lot about Doctrine 2 lately and the necessity of having an extra Data Mapper layer in the middle that separates the classes and properties from the fields and tables that store the data. > > Let me know what you guys have experienced, and no pressure since this decision is probably going to affect my sleep and happiness for a few years!! ;) > > ~ Justin DeMaris > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation From justin.demaris at gmail.com Mon May 7 08:52:23 2012 From: justin.demaris at gmail.com (Justin Demaris) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 08:52:23 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database Abstraction / ORM In-Reply-To: <-674697458770260990@unknownmsgid> References: <-674697458770260990@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Wow, that's pretty cool. My first reaction was pretty strongly against it... anything that does database voodoo on the fly worries me, but it allows you freeze the schema or even partially freeze the schema if you are working on adding new features, it has validation hooks, you can build in your own mapper, it has event listeners at key points and it looks like it wouldn't be that hard to adapt it to other data store styles. Impressive and thanks! ~ Justin On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:28 AM, federico ulfo wrote: > I suggest to take a look to red bean, is impressive how easy it is and > right now has one of the most active community! > > http://redbeanphp.com > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 7, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Justin Demaris > wrote: > > > Hello PHP Talkers, > > > > How do you guys feel about ORM systems and other database abstraction > layers? I've been working a lot lately with an older version of Kohana > (fun!) and doing a lot of performance optimization. A good chunk of > improvement has come out of removing reliance on the old Kohana ORM and > replacing it with simple mysqli calls. Is there any ORM system out there > that just does it right? Namely, I'd be looking for things like: > > > > 1) When I instantiate an object by it's ID multiple times, it doesn't > bother to hit up the database after the first time, but just keeps giving > me copies of the same object > > > > 2) Lazy load the object values. There are a number of patterns where > I've seen people instantiate a bunch of objects and then only use a small > subset of them. It would be nice if the object only loaded the data when we > try to reference one of its non-ID properties. > > > > 3) Ability to tweak the back end to work with other database systems > (especially Riak, Mongo and Cassandra) > > > > I have had really good luck in the past working with Yii and integrating > with Redis to use their Active Record structure, but I'm not sure of the > performance there. Also, I've been hearing a lot about Doctrine 2 lately > and the necessity of having an extra Data Mapper layer in the middle that > separates the classes and properties from the fields and tables that store > the data. > > > > Let me know what you guys have experienced, and no pressure since this > decision is probably going to affect my sleep and happiness for a few > years!! ;) > > > > ~ Justin DeMaris > > _______________________________________________ > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From casivaagustin at gmail.com Mon May 7 09:22:01 2012 From: casivaagustin at gmail.com (Agustin Casiva) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 10:22:01 -0300 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database Abstraction / ORM In-Reply-To: References: <-674697458770260990@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: I think that Doctrine is a good alternative, have several features. http://docs.doctrine-project.org/projects/doctrine-orm/en/latest/index.html Also have a version for Mongo as Backend http://docs.doctrine-project.org/projects/doctrine-mongodb-odm/en/latest/ Another option is Propel, is more simple and fast but not so powerful like doctrine. http://www.propelorm.org/ Best Regards On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Justin Demaris wrote: > Wow, that's pretty cool. My first reaction was pretty strongly against > it... anything that does database voodoo on the fly worries me, but it > allows you freeze the schema or even partially freeze the schema if you are > working on adding new features, it has validation hooks, you can build in > your own mapper, it has event listeners at key points and it looks like it > wouldn't be that hard to adapt it to other data store styles. > > Impressive and thanks! > > ~ Justin > > > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:28 AM, federico ulfo wrote: > >> I suggest to take a look to red bean, is impressive how easy it is and >> right now has one of the most active community! >> >> http://redbeanphp.com >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 7, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Justin Demaris >> wrote: >> >> > Hello PHP Talkers, >> > >> > How do you guys feel about ORM systems and other database abstraction >> layers? I've been working a lot lately with an older version of Kohana >> (fun!) and doing a lot of performance optimization. A good chunk of >> improvement has come out of removing reliance on the old Kohana ORM and >> replacing it with simple mysqli calls. Is there any ORM system out there >> that just does it right? Namely, I'd be looking for things like: >> > >> > 1) When I instantiate an object by it's ID multiple times, it doesn't >> bother to hit up the database after the first time, but just keeps giving >> me copies of the same object >> > >> > 2) Lazy load the object values. There are a number of patterns where >> I've seen people instantiate a bunch of objects and then only use a small >> subset of them. It would be nice if the object only loaded the data when we >> try to reference one of its non-ID properties. >> > >> > 3) Ability to tweak the back end to work with other database systems >> (especially Riak, Mongo and Cassandra) >> > >> > I have had really good luck in the past working with Yii and >> integrating with Redis to use their Active Record structure, but I'm not >> sure of the performance there. Also, I've been hearing a lot about Doctrine >> 2 lately and the necessity of having an extra Data Mapper layer in the >> middle that separates the classes and properties from the fields and tables >> that store the data. >> > >> > Let me know what you guys have experienced, and no pressure since this >> decision is probably going to affect my sleep and happiness for a few >> years!! ;) >> > >> > ~ Justin DeMaris >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> > >> > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> _______________________________________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -- Ing. Casiva Agustin Mail/Msn/GTalk/Jabber: casivaagustin at gmail.com Skype: casivaagustin CEL : 054-03722-15270639 Site: http://www.casivaagustin.com.ar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From guilhermeblanco at gmail.com Mon May 7 09:43:24 2012 From: guilhermeblanco at gmail.com (guilhermeblanco at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 09:43:24 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database Abstraction / ORM In-Reply-To: References: <-674697458770260990@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Hi, I'm one of the Doctrine developers and I can assure you the extra data mapper you mentioned is easier than you imagine. There's a reason for that and that's probably what separates the tools for creating simple websites to huge ones. One simple example is how you map composite keys, how to deal with inheritance, etc. Trying a very quick look to RedBeanPHP I couldn't see any of these support. Also, people tend to compare Doctrine 1 and Doctrine 2. They can't be compared. The first one implemented ActiveRecord while the second is a DataMapper. They are fundamentally different and the approaches are completely different. Lastly, you may miss the old behaviors that Doctrine 1 had, like NestedSet, Sluggable, Timestampable, Translatable, etc. You can achieve the same by incorporating an extension called Gedmo and available at: https://github.com/l3pp4rd/DoctrineExtensions If you are using Symfony2, the integration is natural and configuration is nearly to 0. Thanks, On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Agustin Casiva wrote: > I think that Doctrine is a good alternative, have several features. > > http://docs.doctrine-project.org/projects/doctrine-orm/en/latest/index.html > > Also have a version for Mongo as Backend > > http://docs.doctrine-project.org/projects/doctrine-mongodb-odm/en/latest/ > > Another option is Propel, is more simple and fast but not so powerful like > doctrine. > > http://www.propelorm.org/ > > Best Regards > > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Justin Demaris > wrote: >> >> Wow, that's pretty cool. My first reaction was pretty strongly against >> it... anything that does database voodoo on the fly worries me, but it >> allows you freeze the schema or even partially freeze the schema if you are >> working on adding new features, it has validation hooks, you can build in >> your own mapper, it has event listeners at key points and it looks like it >> wouldn't be that hard to adapt it to other data store styles. >> >> Impressive and thanks! >> >> ~ Justin >> >> >> On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:28 AM, federico ulfo >> wrote: >>> >>> I suggest to take a look to red bean, is impressive how easy it is and >>> right now has one of the most active community! >>> >>> http://redbeanphp.com >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On May 7, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Justin Demaris >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Hello PHP Talkers, >>> > >>> > How do you guys feel about ORM systems and other database abstraction >>> > layers? I've been working a lot lately with an older version of Kohana >>> > (fun!) and doing a lot of performance optimization. A good chunk of >>> > improvement has come out of removing reliance on the old Kohana ORM and >>> > replacing it with simple mysqli calls. Is there any ORM system out there >>> > that just does it right? Namely, I'd be looking for things like: >>> > >>> > 1) When I instantiate an object by it's ID multiple times, it doesn't >>> > bother to hit up the database after the first time, but just keeps giving me >>> > copies of the same object >>> > >>> > 2) Lazy load the object values. There are a number of patterns where >>> > I've seen people instantiate a bunch of objects and then only use a small >>> > subset of them. It would be nice if the object only loaded the data when we >>> > try to reference one of its non-ID properties. >>> > >>> > 3) Ability to tweak the back end to work with other database systems >>> > (especially Riak, Mongo and Cassandra) >>> > >>> > I have had really good luck in the past working with Yii and >>> > integrating with Redis to use their Active Record structure, but I'm not >>> > sure of the performance there. Also, I've been hearing a lot about Doctrine >>> > 2 lately and the necessity of having an extra Data Mapper layer in the >>> > middle that separates the classes and properties from the fields and tables >>> > that store the data. >>> > >>> > Let me know what you guys have experienced, and no pressure since this >>> > decision is probably going to affect my sleep and happiness for a few >>> > years!! ;) >>> > >>> > ~ Justin DeMaris >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >>> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >>> > >>> > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >>> >>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > > > -- > Ing. Casiva? Agustin > > Mail/Msn/GTalk/Jabber: casivaagustin at gmail.com > Skype: casivaagustin > CEL : 054-03722-15270639 > Site: http://www.casivaagustin.com.ar > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- Guilherme Blanco MSN: guilhermeblanco at hotmail.com GTalk: guilhermeblanco Toronto - ON/Canada From justin.demaris at gmail.com Mon May 7 09:57:35 2012 From: justin.demaris at gmail.com (Justin Demaris) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 09:57:35 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database Abstraction / ORM In-Reply-To: References: <-674697458770260990@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: One other feature that I would be interested in is friendliness to unit tests. Is it possible to easily set up faux-objects and pass them around without having them hit the database? Is it possible to use some of the more complex fetching and management operations without actually hitting a real database? I had a debate on the values of data mapping vs active records a while ago with a coworker and from my understanding, data mapping isn't so much "completely different" from the active record approach as it is the next logical evolutionary step to support the needs of large application development. A lot of the ideas of data mapping have been filtering their way back into simpler ORM systems like Yii that still call themselves "Active Record". Back to the point, how well does Doctrine 2 play with unit tests? On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 9:43 AM, guilhermeblanco at gmail.com < guilhermeblanco at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > I'm one of the Doctrine developers and I can assure you the extra data > mapper you mentioned is easier than you imagine. > > There's a reason for that and that's probably what separates the tools > for creating simple websites to huge ones. One simple example is how > you map composite keys, how to deal with inheritance, etc. Trying a > very quick look to RedBeanPHP I couldn't see any of these support. > > Also, people tend to compare Doctrine 1 and Doctrine 2. They can't be > compared. The first one implemented ActiveRecord while the second is a > DataMapper. They are fundamentally different and the approaches are > completely different. > Lastly, you may miss the old behaviors that Doctrine 1 had, like > NestedSet, Sluggable, Timestampable, Translatable, etc. You can > achieve the same by incorporating an extension called Gedmo and > available at: https://github.com/l3pp4rd/DoctrineExtensions > > If you are using Symfony2, the integration is natural and > configuration is nearly to 0. > > > Thanks, > > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Agustin Casiva > wrote: > > I think that Doctrine is a good alternative, have several features. > > > > > http://docs.doctrine-project.org/projects/doctrine-orm/en/latest/index.html > > > > Also have a version for Mongo as Backend > > > > > http://docs.doctrine-project.org/projects/doctrine-mongodb-odm/en/latest/ > > > > Another option is Propel, is more simple and fast but not so powerful > like > > doctrine. > > > > http://www.propelorm.org/ > > > > Best Regards > > > > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Justin Demaris > > > wrote: > >> > >> Wow, that's pretty cool. My first reaction was pretty strongly against > >> it... anything that does database voodoo on the fly worries me, but it > >> allows you freeze the schema or even partially freeze the schema if you > are > >> working on adding new features, it has validation hooks, you can build > in > >> your own mapper, it has event listeners at key points and it looks like > it > >> wouldn't be that hard to adapt it to other data store styles. > >> > >> Impressive and thanks! > >> > >> ~ Justin > >> > >> > >> On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:28 AM, federico ulfo > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> I suggest to take a look to red bean, is impressive how easy it is and > >>> right now has one of the most active community! > >>> > >>> http://redbeanphp.com > >>> > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>> On May 7, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Justin Demaris > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > Hello PHP Talkers, > >>> > > >>> > How do you guys feel about ORM systems and other database abstraction > >>> > layers? I've been working a lot lately with an older version of > Kohana > >>> > (fun!) and doing a lot of performance optimization. A good chunk of > >>> > improvement has come out of removing reliance on the old Kohana ORM > and > >>> > replacing it with simple mysqli calls. Is there any ORM system out > there > >>> > that just does it right? Namely, I'd be looking for things like: > >>> > > >>> > 1) When I instantiate an object by it's ID multiple times, it doesn't > >>> > bother to hit up the database after the first time, but just keeps > giving me > >>> > copies of the same object > >>> > > >>> > 2) Lazy load the object values. There are a number of patterns where > >>> > I've seen people instantiate a bunch of objects and then only use a > small > >>> > subset of them. It would be nice if the object only loaded the data > when we > >>> > try to reference one of its non-ID properties. > >>> > > >>> > 3) Ability to tweak the back end to work with other database systems > >>> > (especially Riak, Mongo and Cassandra) > >>> > > >>> > I have had really good luck in the past working with Yii and > >>> > integrating with Redis to use their Active Record structure, but I'm > not > >>> > sure of the performance there. Also, I've been hearing a lot about > Doctrine > >>> > 2 lately and the necessity of having an extra Data Mapper layer in > the > >>> > middle that separates the classes and properties from the fields and > tables > >>> > that store the data. > >>> > > >>> > Let me know what you guys have experienced, and no pressure since > this > >>> > decision is probably going to affect my sleep and happiness for a few > >>> > years!! ;) > >>> > > >>> > ~ Justin DeMaris > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > >>> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > >>> > > >>> > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > >>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > >>> > >>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > >> > >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ing. Casiva Agustin > > > > Mail/Msn/GTalk/Jabber: casivaagustin at gmail.com > > Skype: casivaagustin > > CEL : 054-03722-15270639 > > Site: http://www.casivaagustin.com.ar > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > > -- > Guilherme Blanco > MSN: guilhermeblanco at hotmail.com > GTalk: guilhermeblanco > Toronto - ON/Canada > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ircmaxell at gmail.com Mon May 7 10:13:15 2012 From: ircmaxell at gmail.com (Anthony Ferrara) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 10:13:15 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database Abstraction / ORM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Justin, Replies inline; On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Justin Demaris wrote: > Hello PHP Talkers, > > How do you guys feel about ORM systems and other database abstraction > layers? Personally, I do not like them. I find that the ORM layers specifically violate SRP (Single Responsibility Principle) and are usually not worth while. Instead, I prefer a light weight Data Mapper layer ( http://martinfowler.com/eaaCatalog/dataMapper.html ). I usually hard-code SQL in the mapper, but you *could* use an ORM there. But the key is to keep it completely separated from the business objects. That way your data model is free to evolve independently from your business objects... > Is there any ORM system out there > that just does it right? Namely, I'd be looking for things like: > > 1) When I instantiate an object by it's ID multiple times, it doesn't bother > to hit up the database after the first time, but just keeps giving me copies > of the same object Well, do you really want this all of the time? I can see cases where you do want to re-query the database (especially in sensitive areas)... > 2) Lazy load the object values. There are a number of patterns where I've > seen people instantiate a bunch of objects and then only use a small subset > of them. It would be nice if the object only loaded the data when we try to > reference one of its non-ID properties. Why? Your business objects should have all the data they need at creation time. Otherwise you can wind up in the situation where objects representing the same state have different states. Which is not a good thing... > 3) Ability to tweak the back end to work with other database systems > (especially Riak, Mongo and Cassandra) Unless you're building a project that you want to distribute to others, I find this a bad feature. Sure, it's nice to know you can switch to another storage with a config change. But practically, how often do you do that? And if you do that, you're going to want to tune your data model specifically towards the strengths of the target backend. Otherwise you're constantly stuck with a sub-optimal solution, and little way out when you need to scale... > I have had really good luck in the past working with Yii and integrating > with Redis to use their Active Record structure, but I'm not sure of the > performance there. Also, I've been hearing a lot about Doctrine 2 lately and > the necessity of having an extra Data Mapper layer in the middle that > separates the classes and properties from the fields and tables that store > the data. That mapper layer is a good thing... It allows both to vary independently of each other. Which avoids un-needed coupling between the layers. As far as Doctrine 2 goes, IMHO it's the best layer out there. I use it when I have projects that dictate requirements that it helps fill. But usually, I just use the database specific layer (MySQLi or MongoDB). I hope that helps, Anthony From justin.demaris at gmail.com Mon May 7 10:35:42 2012 From: justin.demaris at gmail.com (Justin Demaris) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 10:35:42 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database Abstraction / ORM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for the thorough reply Anthony. My replies are also in line here: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Anthony Ferrara wrote: > Hey Justin, > > Replies inline; > > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Justin Demaris > wrote: > > Hello PHP Talkers, > > > > How do you guys feel about ORM systems and other database abstraction > > layers? > > Personally, I do not like them. I find that the ORM layers > specifically violate SRP (Single Responsibility Principle) and are > usually not worth while. Instead, I prefer a light weight Data Mapper > layer ( http://martinfowler.com/eaaCatalog/dataMapper.html ). I > usually hard-code SQL in the mapper, but you *could* use an ORM there. > But the key is to keep it completely separated from the business > objects. That way your data model is free to evolve independently > from your business objects... > > > Is there any ORM system out there > > that just does it right? Namely, I'd be looking for things like: > > > > 1) When I instantiate an object by it's ID multiple times, it doesn't > bother > > to hit up the database after the first time, but just keeps giving me > copies > > of the same object > > Well, do you really want this all of the time? I can see cases where > you do want to re-query the database (especially in sensitive > areas)... > My issue ends up being that we can't always expect everyone on the team (it's a pretty large team) to deeply understand the proper way of doing everything. I want this feature as a way to help prevent people from shooting themselves in the foot, so yes, I do want this all of the time. I have seen a lot of code that pretty much assumes the ORM objects are just like any other variable and the objects can be instantiated very often to make the logic of a for loop simpler. > > > 2) Lazy load the object values. There are a number of patterns where I've > > seen people instantiate a bunch of objects and then only use a small > subset > > of them. It would be nice if the object only loaded the data when we try > to > > reference one of its non-ID properties. > > Why? Your business objects should have all the data they need at > creation time. Otherwise you can wind up in the situation where > objects representing the same state have different states. Which is > not a good thing... > See above. Retraining everyone is not an option, and I've seen a lot of people assume that if they aren't accessing the data, then the object should be a very cheap call and they instantiate it frivolously. We can all argue that you need to know your platform in detail in order to really use it right and it certain things will be better in optimal cases, but these are the variables I have to work with. The other issue is that at small scale, most of the time the performance is still quite acceptable, but as the product grows and the scale grows, these cases become more obvious. These kind of lazy loads enable me to pass objects around to functions that may need them, but only incur the database hit if the function does end up needing them. At the same time, I do welcome best practice recommendations for myself and for the rare cases when I get complete control of the architecture and implementation :) > > > 3) Ability to tweak the back end to work with other database systems > > (especially Riak, Mongo and Cassandra) > > Unless you're building a project that you want to distribute to > others, I find this a bad feature. Sure, it's nice to know you can > switch to another storage with a config change. But practically, how > often do you do that? And if you do that, you're going to want to > tune your data model specifically towards the strengths of the target > backend. Otherwise you're constantly stuck with a sub-optimal > solution, and little way out when you need to scale... > This isn't so much something that I want to consider as "completely extensible" or that I would want other people to extend my platform for. This is because I actually use hybrid MySQL/Mongo/Redis, MySql/Cassandra, and MySQL/Riak/Redis environments for my projects and I need it to work that way now. If Doctrine is awesome for all things MySQL, but very painful to work in Cassandra support, then it wouldn't be my choice for that project. The fact that it has some Mongo support already is wonderful news! > > > I have had really good luck in the past working with Yii and integrating > > with Redis to use their Active Record structure, but I'm not sure of the > > performance there. Also, I've been hearing a lot about Doctrine 2 lately > and > > the necessity of having an extra Data Mapper layer in the middle that > > separates the classes and properties from the fields and tables that > store > > the data. > > That mapper layer is a good thing... It allows both to vary > independently of each other. Which avoids un-needed coupling between > the layers. > > As far as Doctrine 2 goes, IMHO it's the best layer out there. I use > it when I have projects that dictate requirements that it helps fill. > But usually, I just use the database specific layer (MySQLi or > MongoDB). > When working with Mongo, do you just pass around the stdClass / array representation of the document to do work on it? Do you do anything at the code level to force a standard attribute list for it? > > I hope that helps, > That does help, quite a bit :-D thanks for the time spent on the reply. > > Anthony > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rmarscher at beaffinitive.com Mon May 7 10:40:21 2012 From: rmarscher at beaffinitive.com (Rob Marscher) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 10:40:21 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database Abstraction / ORM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I use the Lithium php framework... so I'll include some notes for your requirements as it relates to that framework. On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Justin Demaris wrote: > 1) When I instantiate an object by it's ID multiple times, it doesn't > bother to hit up the database after the first time, but just keeps giving > me copies of the same object > I would imagine that most db abstractions won't assume you want to do this and you'll need to implement it in your application. In Lithium, your config/bootstrap/cache.php file, you would register a filter around the Model::find method: Filters::apply('lithium\action\Dispatcher', 'find', function($self, $params, $chain) { // examine the arguments to generate a cache key // Lithium cache has a "memory" adapter that can be used // if object found in cache, return // could also check for a param `$params['cache'] === false` to // support skipping the cache $data = $chain->next($self, $params, $chain); // add storing the data to the cache return $data; }); 2) Lazy load the object values. There are a number of patterns where I've > seen people instantiate a bunch of objects and then only use a small subset > of them. It would be nice if the object only loaded the data when we try to > reference one of its non-ID properties. With Lithium and MongoDB (I'm not sure about other dbs), the result of the database call for a list is just a MongoCursor and the "entities" (as Lithium calls them) are only instantiated when needed. It does cache those objects inside the result object. It is possible to unset that cached object though and free up memory (I was able to roll out a huge CSV file this way without using much memory). 3) Ability to tweak the back end to work with other database systems > (especially Riak, Mongo and Cassandra) MongoDB support is strong and built-in to Lithium. It's not too difficult to roll out adapters for other databases - especially those that operate over http. There is a CouchDb adapter included that works this way. http://lithify.me -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ircmaxell at gmail.com Mon May 7 11:09:18 2012 From: ircmaxell at gmail.com (Anthony Ferrara) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 11:09:18 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database Abstraction / ORM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Justin, > My issue ends up being that we can't always expect everyone on the team > (it's a pretty large team) to deeply understand the proper way of doing > everything. I want this feature as a way to help prevent people from > shooting themselves in the foot, so yes, I do want this all of the time. I > have seen a lot of code that pretty much assumes the ORM objects are just > like any other variable and the objects can be instantiated very often to > make the logic of a for loop simpler. We could debate this point, but I think it's a bit off topic. My counter would be simply that "If you can't trust your own developers, you can't solve any other problems"... > See above. Retraining everyone is not an option, and I've seen a lot of > people assume that if they aren't accessing the data, then the object should > be a very cheap call and they instantiate it frivolously. Would you rather train someone and risk they leave, or not and risk they stay? > We can all argue > that you need to know your platform in detail in order to really use it > right and it certain things will be better in optimal cases, but these are > the variables I have to work with. The other issue is that at small scale, > most of the time the performance is still quite acceptable, but as the > product grows and the scale grows, these cases become more obvious. These > kind of lazy loads enable me to pass objects around to functions that may > need them, but only incur the database hit if the function does end up > needing them. Well, but I'd counter there that by making things lazy loading, you're putting a HUGE burdon on your caching layer. Not only does it need to know about the normal objects, but also about all the micro-queries your executing to do the lazy loading. Which means that when you need to invalidate the cache for a record, there are hundreds of possible queries instead of a handful. Not saying that either approach is right or wrong. Just that each has pros and cons. I'd much rather have a simple, non-lazy loading app that I needed to scale rather than one with the complexities of lazy loading... > When working with Mongo, do you just pass around the stdClass / array > representation of the document to do work on it? Do you do anything at the > code level to force a standard attribute list for it? That's the job that my data mapper does for me. It takes the stdClass and maps it to my business objects. So my business objects have the enforced properties and schema, and the data mapper does the translation (knowing about both sides). Nothing in the model layer or above (view, controller, etc) has any knowledge of the data storage format, or how to create the business objects. That's the role the data mapper plays in my applications. Anthony From justin.demaris at gmail.com Mon May 7 11:13:52 2012 From: justin.demaris at gmail.com (Justin Demaris) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 11:13:52 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database Abstraction / ORM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks again for the feedback Anthony :) I really have to look into this Data Mapper approach more. I like the sound of your architecture a lot. On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Anthony Ferrara wrote: > Justin, > > > My issue ends up being that we can't always expect everyone on the team > > (it's a pretty large team) to deeply understand the proper way of doing > > everything. I want this feature as a way to help prevent people from > > shooting themselves in the foot, so yes, I do want this all of the time. > I > > have seen a lot of code that pretty much assumes the ORM objects are just > > like any other variable and the objects can be instantiated very often to > > make the logic of a for loop simpler. > > We could debate this point, but I think it's a bit off topic. My > counter would be simply that "If you can't trust your own developers, > you can't solve any other problems"... > > > See above. Retraining everyone is not an option, and I've seen a lot of > > people assume that if they aren't accessing the data, then the object > should > > be a very cheap call and they instantiate it frivolously. > > Would you rather train someone and risk they leave, or not and risk they > stay? > > > We can all argue > > that you need to know your platform in detail in order to really use it > > right and it certain things will be better in optimal cases, but these > are > > the variables I have to work with. The other issue is that at small > scale, > > most of the time the performance is still quite acceptable, but as the > > product grows and the scale grows, these cases become more obvious. These > > kind of lazy loads enable me to pass objects around to functions that may > > need them, but only incur the database hit if the function does end up > > needing them. > > Well, but I'd counter there that by making things lazy loading, you're > putting a HUGE burdon on your caching layer. Not only does it need to > know about the normal objects, but also about all the micro-queries > your executing to do the lazy loading. Which means that when you need > to invalidate the cache for a record, there are hundreds of possible > queries instead of a handful. > > Not saying that either approach is right or wrong. Just that each has > pros and cons. I'd much rather have a simple, non-lazy loading app > that I needed to scale rather than one with the complexities of lazy > loading... > > > > When working with Mongo, do you just pass around the stdClass / array > > representation of the document to do work on it? Do you do anything at > the > > code level to force a standard attribute list for it? > > That's the job that my data mapper does for me. It takes the stdClass > and maps it to my business objects. So my business objects have the > enforced properties and schema, and the data mapper does the > translation (knowing about both sides). Nothing in the model layer or > above (view, controller, etc) has any knowledge of the data storage > format, or how to create the business objects. That's the role the > data mapper plays in my applications. > > Anthony > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From guilhermeblanco at gmail.com Wed May 9 22:49:12 2012 From: guilhermeblanco at gmail.com (guilhermeblanco at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 22:49:12 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database Abstraction / ORM In-Reply-To: References: <-674697458770260990@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Hi Justin, Comments inline On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Justin Demaris wrote: > One other feature that I would be interested in is friendliness to unit > tests. Is it possible to easily set up faux-objects and pass them around > without having them hit the database? Is it possible to use some of the more > complex fetching and management operations without actually hitting a real > database? To play perfectly with unit tests, you can use another project under Doctrine umbrella called DataFixtures. It allows you to load fixtures and also reference things between the tests. For a better support around not hitting unnecessarily the database, Doctrine contains a concept called Proxies (which PHP needs years of evolution until fully understand and implement a similar support of interceptors of Java, which can benefit later), which creates references to existing entities on DB, but not loading them until they are actually needed. > > I had a debate on the values of data mapping vs active records a while ago > with a coworker and from my understanding, data mapping isn't so much > "completely different" from the active record approach as it is the next > logical evolutionary step to support the needs of large application > development. A lot of the ideas of data mapping have been filtering their > way back into simpler ORM systems like Yii that still call themselves > "Active Record". People don't recognize that PHP sucks at memory management in OO. No matter how much people complain about it, core doesn't focus into paradigm in the language, they still want to do all and fail to do at least one efficiently. ActiveRecord can't be efficiently implemented in PHP due to that. Creating records takes tons of resources, which was probably the main reason why Doctrine 1 failed. You just can't load more than 10k records. It's just not possible. That's where DataMapper comes to play and solve most of the issues on this. > > Back to the point, how well does Doctrine 2 play with unit tests? It's amazing! =) Try it and please come to talk about it here later. > > > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 9:43 AM, guilhermeblanco at gmail.com > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I'm one of the Doctrine developers and I can assure you the extra data >> mapper you mentioned is easier than you imagine. >> >> There's a reason for that and that's probably what separates the tools >> for creating simple websites to huge ones. One simple example is how >> you map composite keys, how to deal with inheritance, etc. Trying a >> very quick look to RedBeanPHP I couldn't see any of these support. >> >> Also, people tend to compare Doctrine 1 and Doctrine 2. They can't be >> compared. The first one implemented ActiveRecord while the second is a >> DataMapper. They are fundamentally different and the approaches are >> completely different. >> Lastly, you may miss the old behaviors that Doctrine 1 had, like >> NestedSet, Sluggable, Timestampable, Translatable, etc. You can >> achieve the same by incorporating an extension called Gedmo and >> available at: https://github.com/l3pp4rd/DoctrineExtensions >> >> If you are using Symfony2, the integration is natural and >> configuration is nearly to 0. >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Agustin Casiva >> wrote: >> > I think that Doctrine is a good alternative, have several features. >> > >> > >> > http://docs.doctrine-project.org/projects/doctrine-orm/en/latest/index.html >> > >> > Also have a version for Mongo as Backend >> > >> > >> > http://docs.doctrine-project.org/projects/doctrine-mongodb-odm/en/latest/ >> > >> > Another option is Propel, is more simple and fast but not so powerful >> > like >> > doctrine. >> > >> > http://www.propelorm.org/ >> > >> > Best Regards >> > >> > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Justin Demaris >> > >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Wow, that's pretty cool. My first reaction was pretty strongly against >> >> it... anything that does database voodoo on the fly worries me, but it >> >> allows you freeze the schema or even partially freeze the schema if you >> >> are >> >> working on adding new features, it has validation hooks, you can build >> >> in >> >> your own mapper, it has event listeners at key points and it looks like >> >> it >> >> wouldn't be that hard to adapt it to other data store styles. >> >> >> >> Impressive and thanks! >> >> >> >> ~ Justin >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:28 AM, federico ulfo >> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> I suggest to take a look to red bean, is impressive how easy it is and >> >>> right now has one of the most active community! >> >>> >> >>> http://redbeanphp.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> >> >>> On May 7, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Justin Demaris >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> > Hello PHP Talkers, >> >>> > >> >>> > How do you guys feel about ORM systems and other database >> >>> > abstraction >> >>> > layers? I've been working a lot lately with an older version of >> >>> > Kohana >> >>> > (fun!) and doing a lot of performance optimization. A good chunk of >> >>> > improvement has come out of removing reliance on the old Kohana ORM >> >>> > and >> >>> > replacing it with simple mysqli calls. Is there any ORM system out >> >>> > there >> >>> > that just does it right? Namely, I'd be looking for things like: >> >>> > >> >>> > 1) When I instantiate an object by it's ID multiple times, it >> >>> > doesn't >> >>> > bother to hit up the database after the first time, but just keeps >> >>> > giving me >> >>> > copies of the same object >> >>> > >> >>> > 2) Lazy load the object values. There are a number of patterns where >> >>> > I've seen people instantiate a bunch of objects and then only use a >> >>> > small >> >>> > subset of them. It would be nice if the object only loaded the data >> >>> > when we >> >>> > try to reference one of its non-ID properties. >> >>> > >> >>> > 3) Ability to tweak the back end to work with other database systems >> >>> > (especially Riak, Mongo and Cassandra) >> >>> > >> >>> > I have had really good luck in the past working with Yii and >> >>> > integrating with Redis to use their Active Record structure, but I'm >> >>> > not >> >>> > sure of the performance there. Also, I've been hearing a lot about >> >>> > Doctrine >> >>> > 2 lately and the necessity of having an extra Data Mapper layer in >> >>> > the >> >>> > middle that separates the classes and properties from the fields and >> >>> > tables >> >>> > that store the data. >> >>> > >> >>> > Let me know what you guys have experienced, and no pressure since >> >>> > this >> >>> > decision is probably going to affect my sleep and happiness for a >> >>> > few >> >>> > years!! ;) >> >>> > >> >>> > ~ Justin DeMaris >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >> >>> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> >>> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >>> > >> >>> > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> >>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >>> >> >>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Ing. Casiva? Agustin >> > >> > Mail/Msn/GTalk/Jabber: casivaagustin at gmail.com >> > Skype: casivaagustin >> > CEL : 054-03722-15270639 >> > Site: http://www.casivaagustin.com.ar >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> > >> > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> >> >> >> -- >> Guilherme Blanco >> MSN: guilhermeblanco at hotmail.com >> GTalk: guilhermeblanco >> Toronto - ON/Canada >> _______________________________________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- Guilherme Blanco MSN: guilhermeblanco at hotmail.com GTalk: guilhermeblanco Toronto - ON/Canada From guilhermeblanco at gmail.com Wed May 9 23:18:13 2012 From: guilhermeblanco at gmail.com (guilhermeblanco at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 23:18:13 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Database Abstraction / ORM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Anthony, It's great to see PHP contributors around. =) Comments inline. On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Anthony Ferrara wrote: > Hey Justin, > > Replies inline; > > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Justin Demaris wrote: >> Hello PHP Talkers, >> >> How do you guys feel about ORM systems and other database abstraction >> layers? > > Personally, I do not like them. ?I find that the ORM layers > specifically violate SRP (Single Responsibility Principle) and are > usually not worth while. ?Instead, I prefer a light weight Data Mapper > layer ( http://martinfowler.com/eaaCatalog/dataMapper.html ). ?I > usually hard-code SQL in the mapper, but you *could* use an ORM there. > ?But the key is to keep it completely separated from the business > objects. ?That way your data model is free to evolve independently > from your business objects... > >> Is there any ORM system out there >> that just does it right? Namely, I'd be looking for things like: >> >> 1) When I instantiate an object by it's ID multiple times, it doesn't bother >> to hit up the database after the first time, but just keeps giving me copies >> of the same object > > Well, do you really want this all of the time? ?I can see cases where > you do want to re-query the database (especially in sensitive > areas)... Any good ORM relies on a UnitOfWork. Under this concept, you can tell it to "forget" about a certain object or "know" about an object. Based on that, both perspectives you mentioned are support. > >> 2) Lazy load the object values. There are a number of patterns where I've >> seen people instantiate a bunch of objects and then only use a small subset >> of them. It would be nice if the object only loaded the data when we try to >> reference one of its non-ID properties. > > Why? ?Your business objects should have all the data they need at > creation time. ?Otherwise you can wind up in the situation where > objects representing the same state have different states. ?Which is > not a good thing... As I mentioned in the other email, any good ORM tool should deal with Proxies/References. If you want to load, or only load partially, you should have this ability. I disagree with Anthony that is bad. That's the biggest principle to avoid (and also to cause if misused) the N+1 problem insanely referred by beginners or ORM haters. > >> 3) Ability to tweak the back end to work with other database systems >> (especially Riak, Mongo and Cassandra) > > Unless you're building a project that you want to distribute to > others, I find this a bad feature. ?Sure, it's nice to know you can > switch to another storage with a config change. ?But practically, how > often do you do that? ?And if you do that, you're going to want to > tune your data model specifically towards the strengths of the target > backend. ?Otherwise you're constantly stuck with a sub-optimal > solution, and little way out when you need to scale... I disagree with you, unfortunately. The time needed for certain operations using certain DB drivers may be huge for functional testing purposes. By tweaking your application environment, you can use sqlite:memory for testing and mysql in prod, running the tests quicker. I hate advertising too much, but unfortunately, PHP lacks so much of good competitors of Doctrine. You can use ORM and ODM mappers and almost swap one with the other and your application can still run smoothly. > >> I have had really good luck in the past working with Yii and integrating >> with Redis to use their Active Record structure, but I'm not sure of the >> performance there. Also, I've been hearing a lot about Doctrine 2 lately and >> the necessity of having an extra Data Mapper layer in the middle that >> separates the classes and properties from the fields and tables that store >> the data. > > That mapper layer is a good thing... ?It allows both to vary > independently of each other. ?Which avoids un-needed coupling between > the layers. > > As far as Doctrine 2 goes, IMHO it's the best layer out there. ?I use > it when I have projects that dictate requirements that it helps fill. > But usually, I just use the database specific layer (MySQLi or > MongoDB). There's a reason why you need a mapping layer. Depending of your domain problem, you may want for example different strategies for inheritance. There're 3 types available, but not all of them are implemented by D2. Class Table Inheritance, Single Table Inheritance and Concrete Table Inheritance. You can read more about them at PoEAA of Martin Fowler's book. Each type has pros and cons. Also, associations may map to a composite foreign-key, you also have locking strategies to play, etc. All these things must be taken into account and are not trivial to be done without a mapping layer. > > I hope that helps, > > Anthony > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- Guilherme Blanco MSN: guilhermeblanco at hotmail.com GTalk: guilhermeblanco Toronto - ON/Canada From bulk at zaunere.com Fri May 11 15:36:05 2012 From: bulk at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 15:36:05 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality Message-ID: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> Hi all, So, in a mix of rant-and-feedback-gathering - is it just me, or have browsers largely gone downhill in the last few months? Chrome: freezes continually with 1mb view source. Seems more worried about trying to get me to login to the mothership and track my social networks, than actually being a browser that can download text from a web server. And, if I would so happen to want to reload a page (crazy, right?), it's so hell-bent on caching everything that I have to restart it to see any new content - control-r, forget about it. Guess they want their browser to be "fast" :) Firefox: what happened to my friend?!? Great, now we get a new release every few minutes, but it crashes, can't correctly repost a form (everything is always expired), view source hangs or won't display the source of a POST, and it won't even copy the HTML out of Firebug into a text editor... control-c doesn't capture anything! Not to mention it's using 800mb of my RAM and renders pages about as quick as a 286. IE9: so, disable cache for all requests; that's handy. Fast, but will actually re-request the page from the server when told to do so. Developer tools aren't great, but it's not using 1gb of RAM either. View source is, eh, well... These are all the latest version of these browsers. Though right now the best I've found is: wget -O - test.site/something | less So that I can actually see what the server is spitting back - and it works like a charm :) So am I missing something here, or... anyone else having these types of problems (more so) of late? H From chsnyder at gmail.com Fri May 11 15:45:22 2012 From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 15:45:22 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Hans Zaunere wrote: > So, in a mix of rant-and-feedback-gathering - is it just me, or have > browsers largely gone downhill in the last few months? Big picture, things are great -- html5 / css3 support, much better cross-browser rendering than we've ever had, developer tools in consumer builds. But yeah, Firefox has been a mess recently. And Chrome breaks things then fixes them from release to release -- especially around content-editable support. From felix.shnir at gmail.com Fri May 11 15:47:46 2012 From: felix.shnir at gmail.com (Felix Shnir) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 15:47:46 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: Firefox is probably one of the better browser out there still. If you are experiencing crashes, this most likely indicates corrupted profile -- this occurs often during upgrades, but there many factor why it would go corrupt. Try creating a new profile and see how this affects it. On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Chris Snyder wrote: > On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Hans Zaunere wrote: > > > So, in a mix of rant-and-feedback-gathering - is it just me, or have > > browsers largely gone downhill in the last few months? > > Big picture, things are great -- html5 / css3 support, much better > cross-browser rendering than we've ever had, developer tools in > consumer builds. > > But yeah, Firefox has been a mess recently. And Chrome breaks things > then fixes them from release to release -- especially around > content-editable support. > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rainelemental at gmail.com Fri May 11 15:48:25 2012 From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Federico Ulfo) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 15:48:25 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: Here is my OSX user experience, I was using Firefox for inspect/debugging web page, it's good but too over-bloated with functionalities and plugins. I recently found my nirvana in Chrome, clean and fast. Safari is the Zen for sailing the interweb. On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Hans Zaunere wrote: > Hi all, > > So, in a mix of rant-and-feedback-gathering - is it just me, or have > browsers largely gone downhill in the last few months? > > Chrome: freezes continually with 1mb view source. Seems more worried > about > trying to get me to login to the mothership and track my social networks, > than actually being a browser that can download text from a web server. > And, if I would so happen to want to reload a page (crazy, right?), it's so > hell-bent on caching everything that I have to restart it to see any new > content - control-r, forget about it. Guess they want their browser to be > "fast" :) > > Firefox: what happened to my friend?!? Great, now we get a new release > every few minutes, but it crashes, can't correctly repost a form > (everything > is always expired), view source hangs or won't display the source of a > POST, > and it won't even copy the HTML out of Firebug into a text editor... > control-c doesn't capture anything! Not to mention it's using 800mb of my > RAM and renders pages about as quick as a 286. > > IE9: so, disable cache for all requests; that's handy. Fast, but will > actually re-request the page from the server when told to do so. Developer > tools aren't great, but it's not using 1gb of RAM either. View source is, > eh, well... > > These are all the latest version of these browsers. Though right now the > best I've found is: > > wget -O - test.site/something | less > > So that I can actually see what the server is spitting back - and it works > like a charm :) > > So am I missing something here, or... anyone else having these types of > problems (more so) of late? > > H > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chsnyder at gmail.com Fri May 11 15:54:46 2012 From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 15:54:46 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 3:48 PM, Federico Ulfo wrote: > Safari is the Zen for sailing the interweb. That spot will always be held by IE 5 for Mac, where by Zen I mean that it felt like a kick to the head. From bulk at zaunere.com Fri May 11 16:02:57 2012 From: bulk at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 16:02:57 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: <02c601cd2fb1$0fb724b0$2f256e10$@zaunere.com> > Firefox is probably one of the better browser out there still. If you > are experiencing crashes, this most likely indicates corrupted profile - > - this occurs often during upgrades, but there many factor why it would > go corrupt. Try creating a new profile and see how this affects it. That's not a bad idea - though it still seems as though it's broken functionality (recently) with how it handle form reposts. Anyone seeing this? > > So, in a mix of rant-and-feedback-gathering - is it just me, or have > > browsers largely gone downhill in the last few months? > > Big picture, things are great -- html5 / css3 support, much better > cross-browser rendering than we've ever had, developer tools in > consumer builds. I suppose, but at the same time it feels that the front-end functionality is bloating the browsers beyond the basics... we're all still talking HTTP here, folks - and for server-side development, it of the utmost importance. Maybe the developer tools in consumer builds is part of the problem. Browsers are trying to do too many things, and supporting too many different types of web developers. Where's the "developer's browser" or more specifically, the server-side developer's browser... maybe we should recommend that to the "big three" :) Or maybe there's a magic-soup of settings that can be applied to these browsers to turn off all the consumer stuff? H From dsteplight at gmail.com Fri May 11 16:06:27 2012 From: dsteplight at gmail.com (Darryle Steplight) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 16:06:27 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: <02c601cd2fb1$0fb724b0$2f256e10$@zaunere.com> References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> <02c601cd2fb1$0fb724b0$2f256e10$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: Speaking of FireFox, has anyone realized that youtube videos don't play on the latest FF on a Mac, even after updating Adobe Flash? On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Hans Zaunere wrote: >> Firefox is probably one of the better browser out there still. ?If you >> are experiencing crashes, this most likely indicates corrupted profile - >> - this occurs often during upgrades, but there many factor why it would >> go corrupt. ?Try creating a new profile and see how this affects it. > > That's not a bad idea - though it still seems as though it's broken > functionality (recently) with how it handle form reposts. ?Anyone seeing > this? > >> > So, in a mix of rant-and-feedback-gathering - is it just me, or have >> > browsers largely gone downhill in the last few months? >> >> Big picture, things are great -- html5 / css3 support, much better >> cross-browser rendering than we've ever had, developer tools in >> consumer builds. > > I suppose, but at the same time it feels that the front-end functionality is > bloating the browsers beyond the basics... we're all still talking HTTP > here, folks - and for server-side development, it of the utmost importance. > > Maybe the developer tools in consumer builds is part of the problem. > Browsers are trying to do too many things, and supporting too many different > types of web developers. > > Where's the "developer's browser" or more specifically, the server-side > developer's browser... maybe we should recommend that to the "big three" :) > Or maybe there's a magic-soup of settings that can be applied to these > browsers to turn off all the consumer stuff? > > H > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- ---------------------------------------------- "May the Source be with you." From joeyd473 at gmail.com Fri May 11 16:25:53 2012 From: joeyd473 at gmail.com (Joey Derrico) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 16:25:53 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> <02c601cd2fb1$0fb724b0$2f256e10$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: I don't have those problems, but sometimes when I close FF it takes like 20 minutes to actually close. Chrome just pisses me off (I prefer IE9 to Chrome). I reccomend giving Opera a try. It is my favorite browser, and though (useful) developer tools are virtually nonexistent its still worth a try Joey Derrico -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bulk at zaunere.com Fri May 11 16:32:29 2012 From: bulk at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 16:32:29 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: <02cd01cd2fb5$2fbaa6c0$8f2ff440$@zaunere.com> > Here is my OSX user experience, I was using Firefox for > inspect/debugging web page, it's good but too over-bloated with > functionalities and plugins. Agreed, and it seems to be getting worse, which is sad. > I recently found my nirvana in Chrome, clean and fast. It's fast, but apparently because it caches everything. It's also way too big-brother for me. H From mkfmncom at gmail.com Fri May 11 16:36:01 2012 From: mkfmncom at gmail.com (Matthew Kaufman) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 16:36:01 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: <02cd01cd2fb5$2fbaa6c0$8f2ff440$@zaunere.com> References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> <02cd01cd2fb5$2fbaa6c0$8f2ff440$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: The web browser 'Dillo' is great :). Or the graphical version of links On Friday, May 11, 2012, Hans Zaunere wrote: > > Here is my OSX user experience, I was using Firefox for > > inspect/debugging web page, it's good but too over-bloated with > > functionalities and plugins. > > Agreed, and it seems to be getting worse, which is sad. > > > I recently found my nirvana in Chrome, clean and fast. > > It's fast, but apparently because it caches everything. It's also way too > big-brother for me. > > H > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lists at enobrev.com Fri May 11 16:40:13 2012 From: lists at enobrev.com (Mark Armendariz) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 16:40:13 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: <02cd01cd2fb5$2fbaa6c0$8f2ff440$@zaunere.com> References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> <02cd01cd2fb5$2fbaa6c0$8f2ff440$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: <4FAD792D.40006@enobrev.com> >> I recently found my nirvana in Chrome, clean and fast. > It's fast, but apparently because it caches everything. It's also way too > big-brother for me. > > H I've been defaulting to Chromium for a while, with the occasional switch to Firefox / Firebug (I work on Ubuntu) I think it's either ctrl+refresh or shift+refresh to skip the cache on Chromium. I'm not exactly sure, because it's one of those muscle memory things. I tend to prefer chromium for most testing (except video links which tends to give an "oh shnap"). The main thing i miss is firebug's inline request drill-down. In Chromium, you can have your XHR requests listed, but when you click them it opens the networking tab, and another click or two to actually see the raw headers and results. Firebug's inline version is SO much more useful, especially since it's embedded within the rest of your console debugging context. There's also a "disable cache" setting in Chromium that may help with what you're having problems with. I haven't tried it yet - mostly due to my ctrl+refresh habit. Mark From ircmaxell at gmail.com Fri May 11 16:45:28 2012 From: ircmaxell at gmail.com (Anthony Ferrara) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 16:45:28 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: <4FAD792D.40006@enobrev.com> References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> <02cd01cd2fb5$2fbaa6c0$8f2ff440$@zaunere.com> <4FAD792D.40006@enobrev.com> Message-ID: My only beef with Chrome is the lack of application-specific proxying. With FireFox, I can set the proxy to be different than the system one. With chrome, I can't. Sure, foxyproxy exists for Chrome, but it switches the bloody system proxy on demand (imagine what else that may blow up). Otherwise, I use chrome for 99.95% of my activity. And the other 3 browsers that I use are only for browser-specific bugs that come up... On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Mark Armendariz wrote: > >>> I recently found my nirvana in Chrome, clean and fast. >> >> It's fast, but apparently because it caches everything. ?It's also way too >> big-brother for me. >> >> H > > > I've been defaulting to Chromium for a while, with the occasional switch to > Firefox / Firebug (I work on Ubuntu) > > I think it's either ctrl+refresh or shift+refresh to skip the cache on > Chromium. ?I'm not exactly sure, because it's one of those muscle memory > things. > > I tend to prefer chromium for most testing (except video links which tends > to give an "oh shnap"). > > The main thing i miss is firebug's inline request drill-down. ?In Chromium, > you can have your XHR requests listed, but when you click them it opens the > networking tab, and another click or two to actually see the raw headers and > results. ?Firebug's inline version is SO much more useful, especially since > it's embedded within the rest of your console debugging context. > > There's also a "disable cache" setting in Chromium that may help with what > you're having problems with. ?I haven't tried it yet - mostly due to my > ctrl+refresh habit. > > Mark > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation From ramons at gmx.net Fri May 11 17:19:19 2012 From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 17:19:19 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: <4FAD8257.6080107@gmx.net> On 5/11/2012 3:36 PM, Hans Zaunere wrote: > Hi all, > > So, in a mix of rant-and-feedback-gathering - is it just me, or have > browsers largely gone downhill in the last few months? > Hi! During the past few months? It is like that for quite longer. FF 4 and higher just sucks, the UI is horrible and the switch from 3.6 to 4 broke a lot of things that are still not fixed....unless you happen to know the add-on that unfixes the 'fixes'. I also get the impression that the Mozilla folks got way more arrogant. They use to be thankful for constructive criticism or had at least a good reason for why things are the way they are. Now they ignore any user input and if a response comes along it is typically along the lines of "Go away!" You can escape the rapid updating (which Google started with for no reason) by installing the FF10 ESR build. That branch is back to the old, reasonable update schedule. Chrome is IMHO crap from the start and it did not get any better. Yes, it loads pages faster and uses less memory, but it also doesn't do anything other than that. I also like some UI with my fat client. IE is very dependent on the local settings, when they are a bit harsher than mildly restrictive a lot of things just stop working. It also get the impression as if we are back to being forced to IE-only development dragging around different code for IE while the typical code works just fine everywhere else. Opera is technically nice and can do a lot of things, but I find it utterly kludgy to use. Safari is like Chrome, a lot of sauce with not much meat. As far as getting things to work the way I want I still have most success with FF followed by Chrome. I tend to not try it with Opera and IE and Safari are not even considered. I have the luxury to consider it the other's loss when they use these browsers and things don't come out right. Not everyone is as lucky. Generally, I agree, browsers are heading back to the stone age, especially with Flash getting thrown out all over the place. HTML5 isn't properly implemented in most browsers and the pieces that are included are working differently. The problem is that HTML always only specified the markup, but not the display or functionality. It suggests an option, but really leaves a lot to interpretation. Just my 2 ct. David -- Sent from my desktop PC -- From rainelemental at gmail.com Fri May 11 18:07:27 2012 From: rainelemental at gmail.com (federico ulfo) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 18:07:27 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: <4FAD8257.6080107@gmx.net> References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> <4FAD8257.6080107@gmx.net> Message-ID: <-3679347100409700687@unknownmsgid> Really guys, what are you talking about? Now you code once and it works in all browser, I wish things where this easy 10 years ago! Browser improved a lot if you consider standards, compatibility, performances and security (less virus, adware)! Sent from my iPhone On May 11, 2012, at 5:19 PM, David Krings wrote: > On 5/11/2012 3:36 PM, Hans Zaunere wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> So, in a mix of rant-and-feedback-gathering - is it just me, or have >> browsers largely gone downhill in the last few months? >> > > Hi! > > During the past few months? It is like that for quite longer. > > FF 4 and higher just sucks, the UI is horrible and the switch from 3.6 to 4 broke a lot of things that are still not fixed....unless you happen to know the add-on that unfixes the 'fixes'. I also get the impression that the Mozilla folks got way more arrogant. They use to be thankful for constructive criticism or had at least a good reason for why things are the way they are. Now they ignore any user input and if a response comes along it is typically along the lines of "Go away!" > You can escape the rapid updating (which Google started with for no reason) by installing the FF10 ESR build. That branch is back to the old, reasonable update schedule. > > > Chrome is IMHO crap from the start and it did not get any better. Yes, it loads pages faster and uses less memory, but it also doesn't do anything other than that. I also like some UI with my fat client. > > IE is very dependent on the local settings, when they are a bit harsher than mildly restrictive a lot of things just stop working. It also get the impression as if we are back to being forced to IE-only development dragging around different code for IE while the typical code works just fine everywhere else. > > Opera is technically nice and can do a lot of things, but I find it utterly kludgy to use. Safari is like Chrome, a lot of sauce with not much meat. > > > As far as getting things to work the way I want I still have most success with FF followed by Chrome. I tend to not try it with Opera and IE and Safari are not even considered. I have the luxury to consider it the other's loss when they use these browsers and things don't come out right. Not everyone is as lucky. > > Generally, I agree, browsers are heading back to the stone age, especially with Flash getting thrown out all over the place. HTML5 isn't properly implemented in most browsers and the pieces that are included are working differently. The problem is that HTML always only specified the markup, but not the display or functionality. It suggests an option, but really leaves a lot to interpretation. > > > > Just my 2 ct. > > > David > > > -- Sent from my desktop PC -- > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation From justin.demaris at gmail.com Fri May 11 21:04:09 2012 From: justin.demaris at gmail.com (justin.demaris at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 21:04:09 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: <02cd01cd2fb5$2fbaa6c0$8f2ff440$@zaunere.com> References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> <02cd01cd2fb5$2fbaa6c0$8f2ff440$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: <059ff524-d46e-4fab-ab3a-8a594c3e1546@blur> Chrome has all of my favorite debugging features now, and I cant even stand to open other browsers for the most part. But within the past 3 months or so its performance has been going down for me. If I was running Windows I would figure its just time to format and reinstall but I have never had this happen in OSX and Ubuntu before. Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: Hans Zaunere To: NYPHP Talk Sent: Fri, May 11, 2012 20:33:21 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality > Here is my OSX user experience, I was using Firefox for > inspect/debugging web page, it's good but too over-bloated with > functionalities and plugins. Agreed, and it seems to be getting worse, which is sad. > I recently found my nirvana in Chrome, clean and fast. It's fast, but apparently because it caches everything. It's also way too big-brother for me. H _______________________________________________ New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From justin.demaris at gmail.com Fri May 11 21:07:39 2012 From: justin.demaris at gmail.com (justin.demaris at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 21:07:39 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: <-3679347100409700687@unknownmsgid> References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> <4FAD8257.6080107@gmx.net> <-3679347100409700687@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <39b21d95-45c9-49c7-bae6-a30f87e5eb96@blur> Federico, thats a long term trend. Although I have to say the spread of -moz-drop-shadow type browser specific CSS has felt like its getting a bit out if hand.... Within the past few months I think performance and bloat have been hitting Firefox and Chrome. Does anyone know if Opera is still holding strong or does nobody even bother with them anymore? Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: federico ulfo To: NYPHP Talk Sent: Fri, May 11, 2012 22:07:58 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality Really guys, what are you talking about? Now you code once and it works in all browser, I wish things where this easy 10 years ago! Browser improved a lot if you consider standards, compatibility, performances and security (less virus, adware)! Sent from my iPhone On May 11, 2012, at 5:19 PM, David Krings wrote: > On 5/11/2012 3:36 PM, Hans Zaunere wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> So, in a mix of rant-and-feedback-gathering - is it just me, or have >> browsers largely gone downhill in the last few months? >> > > Hi! > > During the past few months? It is like that for quite longer. > > FF 4 and higher just sucks, the UI is horrible and the switch from 3.6 to 4 broke a lot of things that are still not fixed....unless you happen to know the add-on that unfixes the 'fixes'. I also get the impression that the Mozilla folks got way more arrogant. They use to be thankful for constructive criticism or had at least a good reason for why things are the way they are. Now they ignore any user input and if a response comes along it is typically along the lines of "Go away!" > You can escape the rapid updating (which Google started with for no reason) by installing the FF10 ESR build. That branch is back to the old, reasonable update schedule. > > > Chrome is IMHO crap from the start and it did not get any better. Yes, it loads pages faster and uses less memory, but it also doesn't do anything other than that. I also like some UI with my fat client. > > IE is very dependent on the local settings, when they are a bit harsher than mildly restrictive a lot of things just stop working. It also get the impression as if we are back to being forced to IE-only development dragging around different code for IE while the typical code works just fine everywhere else. > > Opera is technically nice and can do a lot of things, but I find it utterly kludgy to use. Safari is like Chrome, a lot of sauce with not much meat. > > > As far as getting things to work the way I want I still have most success with FF followed by Chrome. I tend to not try it with Opera and IE and Safari are not even considered. I have the luxury to consider it the other's loss when they use these browsers and things don't come out right. Not everyone is as lucky. > > Generally, I agree, browsers are heading back to the stone age, especially with Flash getting thrown out all over the place. HTML5 isn't properly implemented in most browsers and the pieces that are included are working differently. The problem is that HTML always only specified the markup, but not the display or functionality. It suggests an option, but really leaves a lot to interpretation. > > > > Just my 2 ct. > > > David > > > -- Sent from my desktop PC -- > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation _______________________________________________ New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arzala at gmail.com Fri May 11 23:36:08 2012 From: arzala at gmail.com (Anirudhsinh Zala) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 09:06:08 +0530 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: <201205120906.09053.arzala@gmail.com> On Saturday 12 May 2012 01:06:05 Hans Zaunere wrote: > Hi all, > > So, in a mix of rant-and-feedback-gathering - is it just me, or have > browsers largely gone downhill in the last few months? > > Chrome: freezes continually with 1mb view source. Seems more worried about > trying to get me to login to the mothership and track my social networks, > than actually being a browser that can download text from a web server. > And, if I would so happen to want to reload a page (crazy, right?), it's so > hell-bent on caching everything that I have to restart it to see any new > content - control-r, forget about it. Guess they want their browser to be > "fast" :) > > Firefox: what happened to my friend?!? Great, now we get a new release > every few minutes, but it crashes, can't correctly repost a form (everything > is always expired), view source hangs or won't display the source of a POST, > and it won't even copy the HTML out of Firebug into a text editor... > control-c doesn't capture anything! Not to mention it's using 800mb of my > RAM and renders pages about as quick as a 286. > > IE9: so, disable cache for all requests; that's handy. Fast, but will > actually re-request the page from the server when told to do so. Developer > tools aren't great, but it's not using 1gb of RAM either. View source is, > eh, well... > > These are all the latest version of these browsers. Though right now the > best I've found is: > > wget -O - test.site/something | less > > So that I can actually see what the server is spitting back - and it works > like a charm :) > > So am I missing something here, or... anyone else having these types of > problems (more so) of late? I Agree with most of issues mentioned here. They are even worse on Linux OSes (of course not IE). But I think another important factor in bad behavior of certain browsers or version is Level of integration of 3rd party contents. Today a typical webpage contains only 50% native conent. Rest content are loaded from various 3rd party websites based on various criteria be it 3rd party banners, Promoted ads, Social integration, Integration of forum discussion etc. I am sure various frontend tools and technologies (specially JS and Ajax) used in delivering them as well their server response time plays major role in rendering native webpage. And any possible complexity in any of above non-native content could possibly hang, distory, cramp native web page also. Anirudh Zala > > H > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > From bulk at zaunere.com Sat May 12 12:44:11 2012 From: bulk at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 12:44:11 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: <-3679347100409700687@unknownmsgid> References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> <4FAD8257.6080107@gmx.net> <-3679347100409700687@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <006d01cd305e$75cfe3b0$616fab10$@zaunere.com> Hi, > Really guys, what are you talking about? Now you code once and it > works in all browser, I wish things where this easy 10 years ago! > Browser improved a lot if you consider standards, compatibility, > performances and security (less virus, adware)! I think you raise a good point - there's a difference between quality and capability. While the capabilities of browsers have certainly increased as front-end technologies have matured (Javascript, HTML, CSS of course), the quality of the browser software itself has suffered. And David, as you point out - the whole release-early/release-often mantra is a good one, stemming from open source. Now, unfortunately, it appears to have become more of a marketing tool for releasing poor quality software. H > On May 11, 2012, at 5:19 PM, David Krings wrote: > > > On 5/11/2012 3:36 PM, Hans Zaunere wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> So, in a mix of rant-and-feedback-gathering - is it just me, or have > >> browsers largely gone downhill in the last few months? > >> > > > > Hi! > > > > During the past few months? It is like that for quite longer. > > > > FF 4 and higher just sucks, the UI is horrible and the switch from 3.6 > to 4 broke a lot of things that are still not fixed....unless you happen > to know the add-on that unfixes the 'fixes'. I also get the impression > that the Mozilla folks got way more arrogant. They use to be thankful > for constructive criticism or had at least a good reason for why things > are the way they are. Now they ignore any user input and if a response > comes along it is typically along the lines of "Go away!" > > You can escape the rapid updating (which Google started with for no > reason) by installing the FF10 ESR build. That branch is back to the > old, reasonable update schedule. > > > > > > Chrome is IMHO crap from the start and it did not get any better. Yes, > it loads pages faster and uses less memory, but it also doesn't do > anything other than that. I also like some UI with my fat client. > > > > IE is very dependent on the local settings, when they are a bit > harsher than mildly restrictive a lot of things just stop working. It > also get the impression as if we are back to being forced to IE-only > development dragging around different code for IE while the typical code > works just fine everywhere else. > > > > Opera is technically nice and can do a lot of things, but I find it > utterly kludgy to use. Safari is like Chrome, a lot of sauce with not > much meat. > > > > > > As far as getting things to work the way I want I still have most > success with FF followed by Chrome. I tend to not try it with Opera and > IE and Safari are not even considered. I have the luxury to consider it > the other's loss when they use these browsers and things don't come out > right. Not everyone is as lucky. > > > > Generally, I agree, browsers are heading back to the stone age, > especially with Flash getting thrown out all over the place. HTML5 isn't > properly implemented in most browsers and the pieces that are included > are working differently. The problem is that HTML always only specified > the markup, but not the display or functionality. It suggests an option, > but really leaves a lot to interpretation. > > > > > > > > Just my 2 ct. > > > > > > David > > > > > > -- Sent from my desktop PC -- > > _______________________________________________ > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation From bmartin at mac.com Sat May 12 13:18:14 2012 From: bmartin at mac.com (Bruce Martin) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 13:18:14 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: <006d01cd305e$75cfe3b0$616fab10$@zaunere.com> References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> <4FAD8257.6080107@gmx.net> <-3679347100409700687@unknownmsgid> <006d01cd305e$75cfe3b0$616fab10$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: <7BDDECE9-7CE6-4070-A387-B156192892AA@mac.com> Thought I would chime in here. I heard that Microsoft currently has plans not to allow third party browsers in Windows 8. Meaning IE 9 only for Windows 8. This to me is yet another bone head move as IE 9 still lacks the standards that Chrome, Safari and FireFox support. As for bloating, I have not noticed it, mainly because I use minimal add-ons. Firefox, IMHO, is slightly above IE now. I prefer Chrome and Safari as they seem to handle the standards in a similar way. Bruce Martin c. 917-727-8230 p. 570-421-0670 bmartin at mac.com From ircmaxell at gmail.com Sat May 12 13:38:03 2012 From: ircmaxell at gmail.com (Anthony Ferrara) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 13:38:03 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: <7BDDECE9-7CE6-4070-A387-B156192892AA@mac.com> References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> <4FAD8257.6080107@gmx.net> <-3679347100409700687@unknownmsgid> <006d01cd305e$75cfe3b0$616fab10$@zaunere.com> <7BDDECE9-7CE6-4070-A387-B156192892AA@mac.com> Message-ID: > Thought I would chime in here. I heard that Microsoft currently has plans not to allow third party browsers in Windows 8. Meaning IE 9 only for Windows 8. This to me is yet another bone head move as IE 9 still lacks the standards that Chrome, Safari and FireFox support. How long do you think that would last before the DOJ gets a hold of that and replays 1998 all over again...? From bmartin at mac.com Sat May 12 13:51:16 2012 From: bmartin at mac.com (Bruce Martin) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 13:51:16 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> <4FAD8257.6080107@gmx.net> <-3679347100409700687@unknownmsgid> <006d01cd305e$75cfe3b0$616fab10$@zaunere.com> <7BDDECE9-7CE6-4070-A387-B156192892AA@mac.com> Message-ID: My thoughts exactly. UPDATE: It seems that what I heard on the radio was only half the story. According to this article it is only doing that on the ARM version of Windows 8 so any tablet or phone running windows 8 RT will only allow IE. http://www.webmonkey.com/2012/05/mozilla-windows-8-a-return-to-the-digital-dark-ages/ Bruce Martin c. 917-727-8230 p. 570-421-0670 bmartin at mac.com On May 12, 2012, at 1:38 PM, Anthony Ferrara wrote: >> Thought I would chime in here. I heard that Microsoft currently has plans not to allow third party browsers in Windows 8. Meaning IE 9 only for Windows 8. This to me is yet another bone head move as IE 9 still lacks the standards that Chrome, Safari and FireFox support. > > How long do you think that would last before the DOJ gets a hold of > that and replays 1998 all over again...? > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation From zippy1981 at gmail.com Sat May 12 17:03:30 2012 From: zippy1981 at gmail.com (Justin Dearing) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 17:03:30 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> <4FAD8257.6080107@gmx.net> <-3679347100409700687@unknownmsgid> <006d01cd305e$75cfe3b0$616fab10$@zaunere.com> <7BDDECE9-7CE6-4070-A387-B156192892AA@mac.com> Message-ID: Bruce, I'm glad you verified your not completely true information. Unfortunately,, I did not see tis message until after I installed Chrome on my 1st generation EEE PC running windwos 8 consumer edition just to prove that it can be done: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/bmSCawI606ULfWRFNMdFrOnR9yYBD3zw5d0l22edA_o?feat=directlink I'm going to te Philippines so I'm setting up an all beta windows system (windows 8 visual studio 11 and resharper 7) so I can do some mongoDB .NET driver development on the 16 hour plane ride to hong kong. Thank god cathy pacific has 120v outlets in coach. Anyway, what Microsoft is doing with ARM is annoying, but there following in apples footsteps, and honestly if anyone has a monopoly in the space win8 on ARM will be in, its apple with their iPad. On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Bruce Martin wrote: > My thoughts exactly. > > UPDATE: It seems that what I heard on the radio was only half the story. > According to this article it is only doing that on the ARM version of > Windows 8 so any tablet or phone running windows 8 RT will only allow IE. > > > http://www.webmonkey.com/2012/05/mozilla-windows-8-a-return-to-the-digital-dark-ages/ > > > > Bruce Martin > c. 917-727-8230 > p. 570-421-0670 > bmartin at mac.com > > > > On May 12, 2012, at 1:38 PM, Anthony Ferrara wrote: > > >> Thought I would chime in here. I heard that Microsoft currently has > plans not to allow third party browsers in Windows 8. Meaning IE 9 only for > Windows 8. This to me is yet another bone head move as IE 9 still lacks the > standards that Chrome, Safari and FireFox support. > > > > How long do you think that would last before the DOJ gets a hold of > > that and replays 1998 all over again...? > > _______________________________________________ > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ramons at gmx.net Sun May 13 14:46:10 2012 From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 14:46:10 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: <7BDDECE9-7CE6-4070-A387-B156192892AA@mac.com> References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> <4FAD8257.6080107@gmx.net> <-3679347100409700687@unknownmsgid> <006d01cd305e$75cfe3b0$616fab10$@zaunere.com> <7BDDECE9-7CE6-4070-A387-B156192892AA@mac.com> Message-ID: <4FB00172.9040002@gmx.net> On 5/12/2012 1:18 PM, Bruce Martin wrote: > Thought I would chime in here. I heard that Microsoft currently has plans not to allow third party browsers in Windows 8. Meaning IE 9 only for Windows 8. This to me is yet another bone head move as IE 9 still lacks the standards that Chrome, Safari and FireFox support. That depends on which Windows 8 you are talking about. The Windows RT formerly known as WOA (Windows on ARM) Windows desktop will NOT provide for anything else other than IE. Only in the Metro view other metro-style browsers are allowed. That said, who cares what W8 does. It is another Vista, or even worse than that. The flop of the century. But I'm digressing.... David From chsnyder at gmail.com Mon May 14 11:08:44 2012 From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 11:08:44 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Web browser quality In-Reply-To: References: <02af01cd2fad$4f00c2b0$ed024810$@zaunere.com> <4FAD8257.6080107@gmx.net> <-3679347100409700687@unknownmsgid> <006d01cd305e$75cfe3b0$616fab10$@zaunere.com> <7BDDECE9-7CE6-4070-A387-B156192892AA@mac.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Anthony Ferrara wrote: >> Thought I would chime in here. I heard that Microsoft currently has plans not to allow third party browsers in Windows 8. Meaning IE 9 only for Windows 8. This to me is yet another bone head move as IE 9 still lacks the standards that Chrome, Safari and FireFox support. > > How long do you think that would last before the DOJ gets a hold of > that and replays 1998 all over again...? As others noted, it's only true for Windows RT on ARM -- they are basically saying that that is a mobile OS and so they can limit it the way that Apple does with iOS. Of course, there are third-party browsers (Opera mini, others?) available on iOS now, but it's not like you can make anything other than Mobile Safari the default browser. Daring Fireball recently linked to an interesting tweet about the anti-trust decision, which is that they were careful to word it so that it only applies to Intel-compatible PC operating systems. Since ARM is not Intel-compatible, the restrictions may not apply. From eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com Wed May 16 06:40:43 2012 From: eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com (Eugenio Tacchini) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 12:40:43 +0200 Subject: [nycphp-talk] UTF-8, databases and best practices Message-ID: Hi all, I need to distribute an application that potentially can be used with many different DBMSs (such as MySQL, PostgreSQL, SQLite, Microsoft SQL Server). The charset used in the databases can be ANY. I would like to always output UTF-8 text when possible and my questions are about the current best practices to handle this kind of application with PHP. 1) As far as I know, PHP still doesn't support natively utf-8 so to avoid problems with string functions, I still have to use mbstring fucntions, am I right? What does PHP 5.4 change about that? 2) How to handle the fact that the data I receive from the database can be stored using any possible charset? Do I need iconv functions and convert everything in utf-8? And then convert it back in the original charset when I have to write to the DB? Thanks! Eugenio From rainelemental at gmail.com Fri May 18 15:32:09 2012 From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Federico Ulfo) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 15:32:09 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? Message-ID: Dudes, I've an Amazon AWS account and I just got a Rackspace account, now I need to configure a Linux server for a LAMP stack. In AWS I've installed Debian, but somebody suggested me Gentoo because of the smaller footprint, what's your suggestion? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dorgan at donaldorgan.com Fri May 18 15:39:47 2012 From: dorgan at donaldorgan.com (Donald Organ) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 15:39:47 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ubuntu On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Federico Ulfo wrote: > Dudes, I've an Amazon AWS account and I just got a Rackspace account, now > I need to configure a Linux server for a LAMP stack. In AWS I've installed > Debian, but somebody suggested me Gentoo because of the smaller footprint, > what's your suggestion? > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkfmncom at gmail.com Fri May 18 15:40:48 2012 From: mkfmncom at gmail.com (Matthew Kaufman) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 15:40:48 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Debian On Friday, May 18, 2012, Donald Organ wrote: > Ubuntu > > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Federico Ulfo > > wrote: > >> Dudes, I've an Amazon AWS account and I just got a Rackspace account, now >> I need to configure a Linux server for a LAMP stack. In AWS I've installed >> Debian, but somebody suggested me Gentoo because of the smaller footprint, >> what's your suggestion? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ircmaxell at gmail.com Fri May 18 15:46:12 2012 From: ircmaxell at gmail.com (Anthony Ferrara) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 15:46:12 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Federico, > Dudes, I've an Amazon AWS account and I just got a Rackspace account, now I > need to configure a Linux server for a LAMP stack. In AWS I've installed > Debian, but somebody suggested me Gentoo because of the smaller footprint, > what's your suggestion? Personally, I stick to CentOS / RedHat for any server installation. Ubuntu/Debian is fine as well. I'd stay away from Gentoo and to a more package based server, unless you have a dedicated server admin (just from the overhead of maintenance). I just have never had luck with the dependency management of APT when installing bleading-edge (latest release) stable packages... But plenty of people have, so it's a fine alternative. More, it's personal preference. Do you prefer the debian approach? Do you prefer the RedHat approach? Go with what you're comfortable with... Anthony From suzerain at suzerain.com Fri May 18 15:53:11 2012 From: suzerain at suzerain.com (Marc Vose) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 15:53:11 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5BAFB30D-9700-480B-8C42-A1AE38214DE1@suzerain.com> Le May 18, 2012 ? 15:46 , Anthony Ferrara a ?crit : > Federico, > >> Dudes, I've an Amazon AWS account and I just got a Rackspace account, now I >> need to configure a Linux server for a LAMP stack. In AWS I've installed >> Debian, but somebody suggested me Gentoo because of the smaller footprint, >> what's your suggestion? > > Personally, I stick to CentOS / RedHat for any server installation. > Ubuntu/Debian is fine as well. I'd stay away from Gentoo and to a > more package based server, unless you have a dedicated server admin > (just from the overhead of maintenance). > > I just have never had luck with the dependency management of APT when > installing bleading-edge (latest release) stable packages... But > plenty of people have, so it's a fine alternative. > > More, it's personal preference. Do you prefer the debian approach? > Do you prefer the RedHat approach? Go with what you're comfortable > with... > I'd echo this. I'm using CentOS, personally, and the biggest reason is my comfort level. It's true that there are slight variations in footprint among the distros, but the difference between that is probably smaller than the difference in the amount of energy consumed by your comfort level, or lack thereof. So on a new project I like to start with what I'm most comfortable with and work from there. When it gets to the point where you need every single ounce of performance, it probably means there are more resources to work with, and then maybe a switch can be made (with help). Cheers, Marc From dsteplight at gmail.com Fri May 18 15:55:31 2012 From: dsteplight at gmail.com (Darryle Steplight) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 15:55:31 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rackspace sucks. Get off them unless you like your box running slow every three days and their customer support team telling you "they have a team working on it right now." every time you call to ask what happened. On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: > Debian > > > On Friday, May 18, 2012, Donald Organ wrote: >> >> Ubuntu >> >> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Federico Ulfo >> wrote: >>> >>> Dudes, I've an Amazon AWS account and I just got a Rackspace account, now >>> I need to configure a Linux server for a LAMP stack. In AWS I've installed >>> Debian, but somebody suggested me Gentoo because of the smaller footprint, >>> what's your suggestion? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >>> >>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- ---------------------------------------------- "May the Source be with you." From leamhall at gmail.com Fri May 18 15:55:50 2012 From: leamhall at gmail.com (Leam Hall) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 15:55:50 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB6A946.1000102@gmail.com> My canned response is Ubuntu if you want to work with Linux, Centos/Red Hat if you want to work on Linux. I have a Red Hat background, FWIW. Leam On 05/18/2012 03:40 PM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: > Debian > > On Friday, May 18, 2012, Donald Organ wrote: > > Ubuntu > > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Federico Ulfo > 'rainelemental at gmail.com');>> wrote: > > Dudes, I've an Amazon AWS account and I just got a Rackspace > account, now I need to configure a Linux server for a LAMP > stack. In AWS I've installed Debian, but somebody suggested me > Gentoo because of the smaller footprint, what's your suggestion? > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation From matt at atopia.net Fri May 18 15:56:59 2012 From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 19:56:59 +0000 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <107532977-1337371020-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1214480074-@b28.c7.bise6.blackberry> Darryle, I manage over a hundred cloud instances with Rackspace without a problem. What are you encountering? Matt -----Original Message----- From: Darryle Steplight Sender: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.orgDate: Fri, 18 May 2012 15:55:31 To: NYPHP Talk Reply-To: NYPHP Talk Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? Rackspace sucks. Get off them unless you like your box running slow every three days and their customer support team telling you "they have a team working on it right now." every time you call to ask what happened. On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: > Debian > > > On Friday, May 18, 2012, Donald Organ wrote: >> >> Ubuntu >> >> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Federico Ulfo >> wrote: >>> >>> Dudes, I've an Amazon AWS account and I just got a Rackspace account, now >>> I need to configure a Linux server for a LAMP stack. In AWS I've installed >>> Debian, but somebody suggested me Gentoo because of the smaller footprint, >>> what's your suggestion? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >>> >>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- ---------------------------------------------- "May the Source be with you." _______________________________________________ New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation From dsteplight at gmail.com Fri May 18 16:00:33 2012 From: dsteplight at gmail.com (Darryle Steplight) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 16:00:33 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: <107532977-1337371020-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1214480074-@b28.c7.bise6.blackberry> References: <107532977-1337371020-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1214480074-@b28.c7.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: Nothing since I left. But when I was on them my box was being super slow. My cursor would take forever to blink every now and then when I was coding in VIM. I called RS customer support and nobody had a solid answer for me or explanation. I just had to wait it out. After three times of that happening within the first month I left Rackspace. On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote: > Darryle, > > I manage over a hundred cloud instances with Rackspace without a problem. What are you encountering? > > Matt > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Darryle Steplight > Sender: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.orgDate: Fri, 18 May 2012 15:55:31 > To: NYPHP Talk > Reply-To: NYPHP Talk > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? > > Rackspace sucks. Get off them unless you like your box running slow > every three days and their customer support team telling you "they > have a team working on it right now." every time you call to ask what > happened. > > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: >> Debian >> >> >> On Friday, May 18, 2012, Donald Organ wrote: >>> >>> Ubuntu >>> >>> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Federico Ulfo >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dudes, I've an Amazon AWS account and I just got a Rackspace account, now >>>> I need to configure a Linux server for a LAMP stack. In AWS I've installed >>>> Debian, but somebody suggested me Gentoo because of the smaller footprint, >>>> what's your suggestion? >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >>>> >>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > > -- > ---------------------------------------------- > "May the Source be with you." > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- ---------------------------------------------- "May the Source be with you." From chsnyder at gmail.com Fri May 18 16:01:17 2012 From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 16:01:17 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Federico Ulfo wrote: > somebody suggested me Gentoo because of the smaller footprint, You can get a small footprint with pretty much any distro. The key is to only install the minimal set of packages provided by the distribution. You don't need x.org and KDE on EC2. Unless you do, of course. From dsteplight at gmail.com Fri May 18 16:03:28 2012 From: dsteplight at gmail.com (Darryle Steplight) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 16:03:28 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree with Chris. Federico, I use YUM to install most of my packages. You can see how big the files are before you install them and which packages they depend on. On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Chris Snyder wrote: > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Federico Ulfo wrote: > >> somebody suggested me Gentoo because of the smaller footprint, > > You can get a small footprint with pretty much any distro. The key is > to only install the minimal set of packages provided by the > distribution. > > You don't need x.org and KDE on EC2. Unless you do, of course. > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- ---------------------------------------------- "May the Source be with you." From joeyd473 at gmail.com Fri May 18 16:27:24 2012 From: joeyd473 at gmail.com (Joey Derrico) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 16:27:24 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Getting the number of dimensions of an array Message-ID: I am trying to count the number of dimensions in an array. I used my google-fu and came up with answers that don't actually work because I can have multi-dimensional array's where one int he middle is multi and the one after not. Below is my latest set of test code (I have been playing with it for hours (with varying results), none correct), It currently returns 15 dimensions and should be returning 5 countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($array)." dimensions\n"; //echo print_r($array,TRUE); class test { public function isMultDimensionalArray($array) { $return = FALSE; if(is_array($array)){ foreach($array as $value){ if(is_array($value)){ $return = TRUE; } } } return $return; } public function countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($array) { $dimensions = 0; if(is_array($array)){ $dimensions++; foreach($array as $key=>$value){ if($this->isMultDimensionalArray($value)){ $dimensions = $dimensions + $this->countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($value); } } } return $dimensions; } } ?> Joey Derrico -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rainelemental at gmail.com Fri May 18 16:36:17 2012 From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Federico Ulfo) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 16:36:17 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Getting the number of dimensions of an array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Easy just use a recursive function as shown here: http://pt.php.net/manual/en/ref.array.php#49219 On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Joey Derrico wrote: > I am trying to count the number of dimensions in an array. I used my > google-fu and came up with answers that don't actually work because I can > have multi-dimensional array's where one int he middle is multi and the one > after not. Below is my latest set of test code (I have been playing with it > for hours (with varying results), none correct), It currently returns 15 > dimensions and should be returning 5 > > echo "\n"; > $test = new test(); > > $array = array(); > $array[0] = '[0]'; > $array[1][0] = '[1][0]'; > $array[1][1] = '[1][1]'; > $array[2][0][0] = '[2][0][0]'; > $array[2][0][1] = '[2][0][1]'; > $array[2][1][0] = '[2][1][0]'; > $array[2][1][1] = '[2][1][1]'; > $array[3][0][0][0] = '[3][0][0][0]'; > $array[3][0][0][1] = '[3][0][0][1]'; > $array[3][1][0][0] = '[3][1][0][0]'; > $array[3][1][0][1] = '[3][1][0][1]'; > $array[3][1][1][0] = '[3][1][1][0]'; > $array[3][1][1][1] = '[3][1][1][1]'; > $array[4][0][0][0][0] = '[4][0][0][0][0]'; > $array[4][0][0][0][1] = '[4][0][0][0][1]'; > $array[4][1][0][0][0] = '[4][1][0][0][0]'; > $array[4][1][0][0][1] = '[4][1][0][0][1]'; > $array[4][1][1][0][0] = '[4][1][1][0][0]'; > $array[4][1][1][0][1] = '[4][1][1][0][1]'; > $array[4][1][1][1][0] = '[4][1][1][1][0]'; > $array[4][1][1][1][1] = '[4][0][0][0][1]'; > $array[5][0][0][0] = '[5][0][0][0]'; > $array[5][0][0][1] = '[5][0][0][1]'; > $array[5][1][0][0] = '[5][1][0][0]'; > $array[5][1][0][1] = '[5][1][0][1]'; > $array[5][1][1][0] = '[5][1][1][0]'; > $array[5][1][1][1] = '[5][1][1][1]'; > $array[6][0][0] = '[6][0][0]'; > $array[6][0][1] = '[6][0][1]'; > $array[6][1][0] = '[6][1][0]'; > $array[6][1][1] = '[6][1][1]'; > $array[7][0] = '[7][0]'; > $array[7][1] = '[7][1]'; > $array[8] = '[8]'; > > echo 'The array has '.$test->countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($array)." > dimensions\n"; > //echo print_r($array,TRUE); > > > class test > { > public function isMultDimensionalArray($array) > { > $return = FALSE; > > if(is_array($array)){ > foreach($array as $value){ > if(is_array($value)){ > $return = TRUE; > } > } > } > return $return; > } > > public function countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($array) > { > $dimensions = 0; > > if(is_array($array)){ > $dimensions++; > foreach($array as $key=>$value){ > if($this->isMultDimensionalArray($value)){ > $dimensions = $dimensions + > $this->countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($value); > } > } > } > return $dimensions; > } > } > ?> > > Joey Derrico > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From justin at justinhileman.info Fri May 18 16:48:47 2012 From: justin at justinhileman.info (justin) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 13:48:47 -0700 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Getting the number of dimensions of an array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: function array_depth($el) { return is_array($el) ? max(array_map('array_depth', $el)) + 1 : 0; } var_dump(array_depth($array)); -- justin On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Joey Derrico wrote: > I am trying to count the number of dimensions in an array. I used my > google-fu and came up with answers that don't actually work because I can > have multi-dimensional array's where one int he middle is multi and the one > after not. Below is my latest set of test code (I have been playing with it > for hours (with varying results), none correct), It currently returns 15 > dimensions and should be returning 5 > > echo "\n"; > $test = new test(); > > $array = array(); > $array[0] = '[0]'; > $array[1][0] = '[1][0]'; > $array[1][1] = '[1][1]'; > $array[2][0][0] = '[2][0][0]'; > $array[2][0][1] = '[2][0][1]'; > $array[2][1][0] = '[2][1][0]'; > $array[2][1][1] = '[2][1][1]'; > $array[3][0][0][0] = '[3][0][0][0]'; > $array[3][0][0][1] = '[3][0][0][1]'; > $array[3][1][0][0] = '[3][1][0][0]'; > $array[3][1][0][1] = '[3][1][0][1]'; > $array[3][1][1][0] = '[3][1][1][0]'; > $array[3][1][1][1] = '[3][1][1][1]'; > $array[4][0][0][0][0] = '[4][0][0][0][0]'; > $array[4][0][0][0][1] = '[4][0][0][0][1]'; > $array[4][1][0][0][0] = '[4][1][0][0][0]'; > $array[4][1][0][0][1] = '[4][1][0][0][1]'; > $array[4][1][1][0][0] = '[4][1][1][0][0]'; > $array[4][1][1][0][1] = '[4][1][1][0][1]'; > $array[4][1][1][1][0] = '[4][1][1][1][0]'; > $array[4][1][1][1][1] = '[4][0][0][0][1]'; > $array[5][0][0][0] = '[5][0][0][0]'; > $array[5][0][0][1] = '[5][0][0][1]'; > $array[5][1][0][0] = '[5][1][0][0]'; > $array[5][1][0][1] = '[5][1][0][1]'; > $array[5][1][1][0] = '[5][1][1][0]'; > $array[5][1][1][1] = '[5][1][1][1]'; > $array[6][0][0] = '[6][0][0]'; > $array[6][0][1] = '[6][0][1]'; > $array[6][1][0] = '[6][1][0]'; > $array[6][1][1] = '[6][1][1]'; > $array[7][0] = '[7][0]'; > $array[7][1] = '[7][1]'; > $array[8] = '[8]'; > > echo 'The array has '.$test->countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($array)." > dimensions\n"; > //echo print_r($array,TRUE); > > > class test > { > ??? public function isMultDimensionalArray($array) > ??? { > ??????? $return = FALSE; > > ??????? if(is_array($array)){ > ??????????? foreach($array as $value){ > ??????????????? if(is_array($value)){ > ??????????????????? $return = TRUE; > ??????????????? } > ??????????? } > ??????? } > ??????? return $return; > ??? } > > ??? public function countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($array) > ??? { > ??????? $dimensions = 0; > > ??????? if(is_array($array)){ > ??????????? $dimensions++; > ??????????? foreach($array as $key=>$value){ > ??????????????? if($this->isMultDimensionalArray($value)){ > ??????????????????? $dimensions = $dimensions + > $this->countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($value); > ??????????????? } > ??????????? } > ??????? } > ??????? return $dimensions; > ??? } > } > ?> > > Joey Derrico > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- http://justinhileman.com From ircmaxell at gmail.com Fri May 18 16:54:30 2012 From: ircmaxell at gmail.com (Anthony Ferrara) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 16:54:30 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Getting the number of dimensions of an array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another trick would be to not use function recursion, but a recursive iterator: http://codepad.viper-7.com/9PeM9c function maxDepth(array $a) { $it2 = new RecursiveIteratorIterator( new RecursiveArrayIterator($a) ); $max = 0; foreach ($it2 as $val) { $max = max($max, $it2->getDepth()); } return $max; } It will actually process less data, since the RecursiveIteratorIterator mode is to skip non-leaf nodes (in other words, elements that are arrays). So the max() call will only ever be called for non-array values... A micro-optimization for sure, but something worth noting... Anthony On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 4:48 PM, justin wrote: > function array_depth($el) { > ? ?return is_array($el) ? max(array_map('array_depth', $el)) + 1 : 0; > } > > var_dump(array_depth($array)); > > > -- justin > > > > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Joey Derrico wrote: >> I am trying to count the number of dimensions in an array. I used my >> google-fu and came up with answers that don't actually work because I can >> have multi-dimensional array's where one int he middle is multi and the one >> after not. Below is my latest set of test code (I have been playing with it >> for hours (with varying results), none correct), It currently returns 15 >> dimensions and should be returning 5 >> >> > echo "\n"; >> $test = new test(); >> >> $array = array(); >> $array[0] = '[0]'; >> $array[1][0] = '[1][0]'; >> $array[1][1] = '[1][1]'; >> $array[2][0][0] = '[2][0][0]'; >> $array[2][0][1] = '[2][0][1]'; >> $array[2][1][0] = '[2][1][0]'; >> $array[2][1][1] = '[2][1][1]'; >> $array[3][0][0][0] = '[3][0][0][0]'; >> $array[3][0][0][1] = '[3][0][0][1]'; >> $array[3][1][0][0] = '[3][1][0][0]'; >> $array[3][1][0][1] = '[3][1][0][1]'; >> $array[3][1][1][0] = '[3][1][1][0]'; >> $array[3][1][1][1] = '[3][1][1][1]'; >> $array[4][0][0][0][0] = '[4][0][0][0][0]'; >> $array[4][0][0][0][1] = '[4][0][0][0][1]'; >> $array[4][1][0][0][0] = '[4][1][0][0][0]'; >> $array[4][1][0][0][1] = '[4][1][0][0][1]'; >> $array[4][1][1][0][0] = '[4][1][1][0][0]'; >> $array[4][1][1][0][1] = '[4][1][1][0][1]'; >> $array[4][1][1][1][0] = '[4][1][1][1][0]'; >> $array[4][1][1][1][1] = '[4][0][0][0][1]'; >> $array[5][0][0][0] = '[5][0][0][0]'; >> $array[5][0][0][1] = '[5][0][0][1]'; >> $array[5][1][0][0] = '[5][1][0][0]'; >> $array[5][1][0][1] = '[5][1][0][1]'; >> $array[5][1][1][0] = '[5][1][1][0]'; >> $array[5][1][1][1] = '[5][1][1][1]'; >> $array[6][0][0] = '[6][0][0]'; >> $array[6][0][1] = '[6][0][1]'; >> $array[6][1][0] = '[6][1][0]'; >> $array[6][1][1] = '[6][1][1]'; >> $array[7][0] = '[7][0]'; >> $array[7][1] = '[7][1]'; >> $array[8] = '[8]'; >> >> echo 'The array has '.$test->countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($array)." >> dimensions\n"; >> //echo print_r($array,TRUE); >> >> >> class test >> { >> ??? public function isMultDimensionalArray($array) >> ??? { >> ??????? $return = FALSE; >> >> ??????? if(is_array($array)){ >> ??????????? foreach($array as $value){ >> ??????????????? if(is_array($value)){ >> ??????????????????? $return = TRUE; >> ??????????????? } >> ??????????? } >> ??????? } >> ??????? return $return; >> ??? } >> >> ??? public function countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($array) >> ??? { >> ??????? $dimensions = 0; >> >> ??????? if(is_array($array)){ >> ??????????? $dimensions++; >> ??????????? foreach($array as $key=>$value){ >> ??????????????? if($this->isMultDimensionalArray($value)){ >> ??????????????????? $dimensions = $dimensions + >> $this->countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($value); >> ??????????????? } >> ??????????? } >> ??????? } >> ??????? return $dimensions; >> ??? } >> } >> ?> >> >> Joey Derrico >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > > -- > http://justinhileman.com > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation From dorgan at donaldorgan.com Fri May 18 17:03:33 2012 From: dorgan at donaldorgan.com (Donald Organ) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 17:03:33 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Getting the number of dimensions of an array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://us.php.net/count $size = count($array, 1); On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Anthony Ferrara wrote: > Another trick would be to not use function recursion, but a recursive > iterator: > > http://codepad.viper-7.com/9PeM9c > > function maxDepth(array $a) { > $it2 = new RecursiveIteratorIterator( > new RecursiveArrayIterator($a) > ); > $max = 0; > foreach ($it2 as $val) { > $max = max($max, $it2->getDepth()); > } > return $max; > } > > It will actually process less data, since the > RecursiveIteratorIterator mode is to skip non-leaf nodes (in other > words, elements that are arrays). So the max() call will only ever be > called for non-array values... A micro-optimization for sure, but > something worth noting... > > Anthony > > > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 4:48 PM, justin wrote: > > function array_depth($el) { > > return is_array($el) ? max(array_map('array_depth', $el)) + 1 : 0; > > } > > > > var_dump(array_depth($array)); > > > > > > -- justin > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Joey Derrico > wrote: > >> I am trying to count the number of dimensions in an array. I used my > >> google-fu and came up with answers that don't actually work because I > can > >> have multi-dimensional array's where one int he middle is multi and the > one > >> after not. Below is my latest set of test code (I have been playing > with it > >> for hours (with varying results), none correct), It currently returns 15 > >> dimensions and should be returning 5 > >> > >> >> echo "\n"; > >> $test = new test(); > >> > >> $array = array(); > >> $array[0] = '[0]'; > >> $array[1][0] = '[1][0]'; > >> $array[1][1] = '[1][1]'; > >> $array[2][0][0] = '[2][0][0]'; > >> $array[2][0][1] = '[2][0][1]'; > >> $array[2][1][0] = '[2][1][0]'; > >> $array[2][1][1] = '[2][1][1]'; > >> $array[3][0][0][0] = '[3][0][0][0]'; > >> $array[3][0][0][1] = '[3][0][0][1]'; > >> $array[3][1][0][0] = '[3][1][0][0]'; > >> $array[3][1][0][1] = '[3][1][0][1]'; > >> $array[3][1][1][0] = '[3][1][1][0]'; > >> $array[3][1][1][1] = '[3][1][1][1]'; > >> $array[4][0][0][0][0] = '[4][0][0][0][0]'; > >> $array[4][0][0][0][1] = '[4][0][0][0][1]'; > >> $array[4][1][0][0][0] = '[4][1][0][0][0]'; > >> $array[4][1][0][0][1] = '[4][1][0][0][1]'; > >> $array[4][1][1][0][0] = '[4][1][1][0][0]'; > >> $array[4][1][1][0][1] = '[4][1][1][0][1]'; > >> $array[4][1][1][1][0] = '[4][1][1][1][0]'; > >> $array[4][1][1][1][1] = '[4][0][0][0][1]'; > >> $array[5][0][0][0] = '[5][0][0][0]'; > >> $array[5][0][0][1] = '[5][0][0][1]'; > >> $array[5][1][0][0] = '[5][1][0][0]'; > >> $array[5][1][0][1] = '[5][1][0][1]'; > >> $array[5][1][1][0] = '[5][1][1][0]'; > >> $array[5][1][1][1] = '[5][1][1][1]'; > >> $array[6][0][0] = '[6][0][0]'; > >> $array[6][0][1] = '[6][0][1]'; > >> $array[6][1][0] = '[6][1][0]'; > >> $array[6][1][1] = '[6][1][1]'; > >> $array[7][0] = '[7][0]'; > >> $array[7][1] = '[7][1]'; > >> $array[8] = '[8]'; > >> > >> echo 'The array has '.$test->countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($array)." > >> dimensions\n"; > >> //echo print_r($array,TRUE); > >> > >> > >> class test > >> { > >> public function isMultDimensionalArray($array) > >> { > >> $return = FALSE; > >> > >> if(is_array($array)){ > >> foreach($array as $value){ > >> if(is_array($value)){ > >> $return = TRUE; > >> } > >> } > >> } > >> return $return; > >> } > >> > >> public function countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($array) > >> { > >> $dimensions = 0; > >> > >> if(is_array($array)){ > >> $dimensions++; > >> foreach($array as $key=>$value){ > >> if($this->isMultDimensionalArray($value)){ > >> $dimensions = $dimensions + > >> $this->countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($value); > >> } > >> } > >> } > >> return $dimensions; > >> } > >> } > >> ?> > >> > >> Joey Derrico > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > >> > >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > > > > > > -- > > http://justinhileman.com > > _______________________________________________ > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chsnyder at gmail.com Fri May 18 17:07:50 2012 From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 17:07:50 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Getting the number of dimensions of an array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:03 PM, Donald Organ wrote: > http://us.php.net/count > > $size = count($array, 1); > Hah, nice. I love the warning: count() does not detect infinite recursion. From bulk at zaunere.com Fri May 18 17:11:32 2012 From: bulk at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 17:11:32 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06e801cd353a$cd69ca10$683d5e30$@zaunere.com> > > Dudes, I've an Amazon AWS account and I just got a Rackspace account, now I > > need to configure a Linux server for a LAMP stack. In AWS I've installed > > Debian, but somebody suggested me Gentoo because of the smaller footprint, > > what's your suggestion? > > Personally, I stick to CentOS / RedHat for any server installation. Same here - I've used Cent for years and am always happy with it. Couple gotchas here and there when building svn/apache/PHP types of things, but always easy to get around and I actually prefer CentOS to RHES at this point. In terms of footprint, it's easy to get down to 700mb with basically only ssh running as a stock image. H From ircmaxell at gmail.com Fri May 18 17:11:21 2012 From: ircmaxell at gmail.com (Anthony Ferrara) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 17:11:21 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Getting the number of dimensions of an array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Except that doesn't do what you think it does... $a = [[[1,2]]]; The depth here is clearly 3. But count($a, COUNT_RECURSIVE); gives 4: http://codepad.viper-7.com/7xPYCu It counts the total number of elements in the array, and any child arrays (including the child array)... Also: constants exist for a reason. I'd suggest not doing count($a, 1), but using the reserved constant: count($a, COUNT_RECURSIVE). Not only does it make it future proof (for example, what if the value of 1 changed in the future), it also makes it easier to read the function call... Anthony On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:03 PM, Donald Organ wrote: > http://us.php.net/count > > $size = count($array, 1); > > > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Anthony Ferrara > wrote: >> >> Another trick would be to not use function recursion, but a recursive >> iterator: >> >> http://codepad.viper-7.com/9PeM9c >> >> function maxDepth(array $a) { >> ? ? ? ?$it2 = new RecursiveIteratorIterator( >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?new RecursiveArrayIterator($a) >> ? ? ? ?); >> ? ? ? ?$max = 0; >> ? ? ? ?foreach ($it2 as $val) { >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?$max = max($max, $it2->getDepth()); >> ? ? ? ?} >> ? ? ? ?return $max; >> } >> >> It will actually process less data, since the >> RecursiveIteratorIterator mode is to skip non-leaf nodes (in other >> words, elements that are arrays). ?So the max() call will only ever be >> called for non-array values... ?A micro-optimization for sure, but >> something worth noting... >> >> Anthony >> >> >> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 4:48 PM, justin wrote: >> > function array_depth($el) { >> > ? ?return is_array($el) ? max(array_map('array_depth', $el)) + 1 : 0; >> > } >> > >> > var_dump(array_depth($array)); >> > >> > >> > -- justin >> > >> > >> > >> > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Joey Derrico >> > wrote: >> >> I am trying to count the number of dimensions in an array. I used my >> >> google-fu and came up with answers that don't actually work because I >> >> can >> >> have multi-dimensional array's where one int he middle is multi and the >> >> one >> >> after not. Below is my latest set of test code (I have been playing >> >> with it >> >> for hours (with varying results), none correct), It currently returns >> >> 15 >> >> dimensions and should be returning 5 >> >> >> >> > >> echo "\n"; >> >> $test = new test(); >> >> >> >> $array = array(); >> >> $array[0] = '[0]'; >> >> $array[1][0] = '[1][0]'; >> >> $array[1][1] = '[1][1]'; >> >> $array[2][0][0] = '[2][0][0]'; >> >> $array[2][0][1] = '[2][0][1]'; >> >> $array[2][1][0] = '[2][1][0]'; >> >> $array[2][1][1] = '[2][1][1]'; >> >> $array[3][0][0][0] = '[3][0][0][0]'; >> >> $array[3][0][0][1] = '[3][0][0][1]'; >> >> $array[3][1][0][0] = '[3][1][0][0]'; >> >> $array[3][1][0][1] = '[3][1][0][1]'; >> >> $array[3][1][1][0] = '[3][1][1][0]'; >> >> $array[3][1][1][1] = '[3][1][1][1]'; >> >> $array[4][0][0][0][0] = '[4][0][0][0][0]'; >> >> $array[4][0][0][0][1] = '[4][0][0][0][1]'; >> >> $array[4][1][0][0][0] = '[4][1][0][0][0]'; >> >> $array[4][1][0][0][1] = '[4][1][0][0][1]'; >> >> $array[4][1][1][0][0] = '[4][1][1][0][0]'; >> >> $array[4][1][1][0][1] = '[4][1][1][0][1]'; >> >> $array[4][1][1][1][0] = '[4][1][1][1][0]'; >> >> $array[4][1][1][1][1] = '[4][0][0][0][1]'; >> >> $array[5][0][0][0] = '[5][0][0][0]'; >> >> $array[5][0][0][1] = '[5][0][0][1]'; >> >> $array[5][1][0][0] = '[5][1][0][0]'; >> >> $array[5][1][0][1] = '[5][1][0][1]'; >> >> $array[5][1][1][0] = '[5][1][1][0]'; >> >> $array[5][1][1][1] = '[5][1][1][1]'; >> >> $array[6][0][0] = '[6][0][0]'; >> >> $array[6][0][1] = '[6][0][1]'; >> >> $array[6][1][0] = '[6][1][0]'; >> >> $array[6][1][1] = '[6][1][1]'; >> >> $array[7][0] = '[7][0]'; >> >> $array[7][1] = '[7][1]'; >> >> $array[8] = '[8]'; >> >> >> >> echo 'The array has '.$test->countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($array)." >> >> dimensions\n"; >> >> //echo print_r($array,TRUE); >> >> >> >> >> >> class test >> >> { >> >> ??? public function isMultDimensionalArray($array) >> >> ??? { >> >> ??????? $return = FALSE; >> >> >> >> ??????? if(is_array($array)){ >> >> ??????????? foreach($array as $value){ >> >> ??????????????? if(is_array($value)){ >> >> ??????????????????? $return = TRUE; >> >> ??????????????? } >> >> ??????????? } >> >> ??????? } >> >> ??????? return $return; >> >> ??? } >> >> >> >> ??? public function countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($array) >> >> ??? { >> >> ??????? $dimensions = 0; >> >> >> >> ??????? if(is_array($array)){ >> >> ??????????? $dimensions++; >> >> ??????????? foreach($array as $key=>$value){ >> >> ??????????????? if($this->isMultDimensionalArray($value)){ >> >> ??????????????????? $dimensions = $dimensions + >> >> $this->countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($value); >> >> ??????????????? } >> >> ??????????? } >> >> ??????? } >> >> ??????? return $dimensions; >> >> ??? } >> >> } >> >> ?> >> >> >> >> Joey Derrico >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > http://justinhileman.com >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> > >> > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> _______________________________________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation From rmarscher at beaffinitive.com Fri May 18 17:16:12 2012 From: rmarscher at beaffinitive.com (Rob Marscher) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 17:16:12 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Federico Ulfo wrote: > Dudes, I've an Amazon AWS account and I just got a Rackspace account, now > I need to configure a Linux server for a LAMP stack. In AWS I've installed > Debian, but somebody suggested me Gentoo because of the smaller footprint, > what's your suggestion? > Another +1 for CentOS. It hasn't let us down over many years of production use. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsteplight at gmail.com Fri May 18 17:20:33 2012 From: dsteplight at gmail.com (Darryle Steplight) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 17:20:33 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: +2 for CentOs :p . Installing PHP via YUM was the only gotcha for me. On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Rob Marscher wrote: > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Federico Ulfo > wrote: >> >> Dudes, I've an Amazon AWS account and I just got a Rackspace account, now >> I need to configure a Linux server for a LAMP stack. In AWS I've installed >> Debian, but somebody suggested me Gentoo because of the smaller footprint, >> what's your suggestion? > > > Another +1 for CentOS. ?It hasn't let us down over many years of production > use. > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- ---------------------------------------------- "May the Source be with you." From ircmaxell at gmail.com Fri May 18 17:27:08 2012 From: ircmaxell at gmail.com (Anthony Ferrara) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 17:27:08 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Darryle > +2 for CentOs :p . Installing PHP via YUM was the only gotcha for me. Really? I've used remi for 5.3: http://blog.famillecollet.com/pages/Config-en and Webtatic for 5.4: http://www.webtatic.com/packages/php54/ Couldn't be simpler... From dsteplight at gmail.com Fri May 18 17:30:02 2012 From: dsteplight at gmail.com (Darryle Steplight) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 17:30:02 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, I don't remember the error message I was getting, but it should be some where in the PHP list threads. Once I compiled PHP form source I didn't have any problems. On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Anthony Ferrara wrote: > Darryle > >> +2 for CentOs :p . Installing PHP via YUM was the only gotcha for me. > > Really? ?I've used remi for 5.3: http://blog.famillecollet.com/pages/Config-en > and Webtatic for 5.4: http://www.webtatic.com/packages/php54/ > > Couldn't be simpler... > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- ---------------------------------------------- "May the Source be with you." From mkfmncom at gmail.com Fri May 18 17:33:30 2012 From: mkfmncom at gmail.com (Matthew Kaufman) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 17:33:30 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was always weary of CentOS back doors: http://www.webhostingtalk.com/archive/index.php/t-1005973.html On Friday, May 18, 2012, Anthony Ferrara wrote: > Darryle > > > +2 for CentOs :p . Installing PHP via YUM was the only gotcha for me. > > Really? I've used remi for 5.3: > http://blog.famillecollet.com/pages/Config-en > and Webtatic for 5.4: http://www.webtatic.com/packages/php54/ > > Couldn't be simpler... > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leegold at operamail.com Fri May 18 17:57:51 2012 From: leegold at operamail.com (Lee Gold) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 14:57:51 -0700 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1337378271.13940.140661077504801.0EA07545@webmail.messagingengine.com> I'm learning and not a Unix guru bit FWIW, Do it yourself and learning: Ubuntu Server the latest LTS (long term service) version. Learning curve isn't too steep and there's a good user base for support, plenty of books and docs that are easier to understand IMO than usual. If it's "critical mission" server then I think have a reputable host with a team of experience sysops do it for you using FreeBsd. On Fri, May 18, 2012, at 03:32 PM, Federico Ulfo wrote: > Dudes, I've an Amazon AWS account and I just got a Rackspace account, now > I > need to configure a Linux server for a LAMP stack. In AWS I've installed > Debian, but somebody suggested me Gentoo because of the smaller > footprint, > what's your suggestion? > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web From joeyd473 at gmail.com Fri May 18 18:58:30 2012 From: joeyd473 at gmail.com (Joey Derrico) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 18:58:30 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Getting the number of dimensions of an array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have test some of these out, but count(recursive) doesn't give the depth of an array Joey On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:11 PM, Anthony Ferrara wrote: > Except that doesn't do what you think it does... > > $a = [[[1,2]]]; > > The depth here is clearly 3. > > But count($a, COUNT_RECURSIVE); gives 4: http://codepad.viper-7.com/7xPYCu > > It counts the total number of elements in the array, and any child > arrays (including the child array)... > > Also: constants exist for a reason. I'd suggest not doing count($a, > 1), but using the reserved constant: count($a, COUNT_RECURSIVE). Not > only does it make it future proof (for example, what if the value of 1 > changed in the future), it also makes it easier to read the function > call... > > Anthony > > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:03 PM, Donald Organ > wrote: > > http://us.php.net/count > > > > $size = count($array, 1); > > > > > > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Anthony Ferrara > > wrote: > >> > >> Another trick would be to not use function recursion, but a recursive > >> iterator: > >> > >> http://codepad.viper-7.com/9PeM9c > >> > >> function maxDepth(array $a) { > >> $it2 = new RecursiveIteratorIterator( > >> new RecursiveArrayIterator($a) > >> ); > >> $max = 0; > >> foreach ($it2 as $val) { > >> $max = max($max, $it2->getDepth()); > >> } > >> return $max; > >> } > >> > >> It will actually process less data, since the > >> RecursiveIteratorIterator mode is to skip non-leaf nodes (in other > >> words, elements that are arrays). So the max() call will only ever be > >> called for non-array values... A micro-optimization for sure, but > >> something worth noting... > >> > >> Anthony > >> > >> > >> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 4:48 PM, justin > wrote: > >> > function array_depth($el) { > >> > return is_array($el) ? max(array_map('array_depth', $el)) + 1 : 0; > >> > } > >> > > >> > var_dump(array_depth($array)); > >> > > >> > > >> > -- justin > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Joey Derrico > >> > wrote: > >> >> I am trying to count the number of dimensions in an array. I used my > >> >> google-fu and came up with answers that don't actually work because I > >> >> can > >> >> have multi-dimensional array's where one int he middle is multi and > the > >> >> one > >> >> after not. Below is my latest set of test code (I have been playing > >> >> with it > >> >> for hours (with varying results), none correct), It currently returns > >> >> 15 > >> >> dimensions and should be returning 5 > >> >> > >> >> >> >> echo "\n"; > >> >> $test = new test(); > >> >> > >> >> $array = array(); > >> >> $array[0] = '[0]'; > >> >> $array[1][0] = '[1][0]'; > >> >> $array[1][1] = '[1][1]'; > >> >> $array[2][0][0] = '[2][0][0]'; > >> >> $array[2][0][1] = '[2][0][1]'; > >> >> $array[2][1][0] = '[2][1][0]'; > >> >> $array[2][1][1] = '[2][1][1]'; > >> >> $array[3][0][0][0] = '[3][0][0][0]'; > >> >> $array[3][0][0][1] = '[3][0][0][1]'; > >> >> $array[3][1][0][0] = '[3][1][0][0]'; > >> >> $array[3][1][0][1] = '[3][1][0][1]'; > >> >> $array[3][1][1][0] = '[3][1][1][0]'; > >> >> $array[3][1][1][1] = '[3][1][1][1]'; > >> >> $array[4][0][0][0][0] = '[4][0][0][0][0]'; > >> >> $array[4][0][0][0][1] = '[4][0][0][0][1]'; > >> >> $array[4][1][0][0][0] = '[4][1][0][0][0]'; > >> >> $array[4][1][0][0][1] = '[4][1][0][0][1]'; > >> >> $array[4][1][1][0][0] = '[4][1][1][0][0]'; > >> >> $array[4][1][1][0][1] = '[4][1][1][0][1]'; > >> >> $array[4][1][1][1][0] = '[4][1][1][1][0]'; > >> >> $array[4][1][1][1][1] = '[4][0][0][0][1]'; > >> >> $array[5][0][0][0] = '[5][0][0][0]'; > >> >> $array[5][0][0][1] = '[5][0][0][1]'; > >> >> $array[5][1][0][0] = '[5][1][0][0]'; > >> >> $array[5][1][0][1] = '[5][1][0][1]'; > >> >> $array[5][1][1][0] = '[5][1][1][0]'; > >> >> $array[5][1][1][1] = '[5][1][1][1]'; > >> >> $array[6][0][0] = '[6][0][0]'; > >> >> $array[6][0][1] = '[6][0][1]'; > >> >> $array[6][1][0] = '[6][1][0]'; > >> >> $array[6][1][1] = '[6][1][1]'; > >> >> $array[7][0] = '[7][0]'; > >> >> $array[7][1] = '[7][1]'; > >> >> $array[8] = '[8]'; > >> >> > >> >> echo 'The array has > '.$test->countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($array)." > >> >> dimensions\n"; > >> >> //echo print_r($array,TRUE); > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> class test > >> >> { > >> >> public function isMultDimensionalArray($array) > >> >> { > >> >> $return = FALSE; > >> >> > >> >> if(is_array($array)){ > >> >> foreach($array as $value){ > >> >> if(is_array($value)){ > >> >> $return = TRUE; > >> >> } > >> >> } > >> >> } > >> >> return $return; > >> >> } > >> >> > >> >> public function countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($array) > >> >> { > >> >> $dimensions = 0; > >> >> > >> >> if(is_array($array)){ > >> >> $dimensions++; > >> >> foreach($array as $key=>$value){ > >> >> if($this->isMultDimensionalArray($value)){ > >> >> $dimensions = $dimensions + > >> >> $this->countNumberOfDimensionsOfAnArray($value); > >> >> } > >> >> } > >> >> } > >> >> return $dimensions; > >> >> } > >> >> } > >> >> ?> > >> >> > >> >> Joey Derrico > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > >> >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > >> >> > >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > http://justinhileman.com > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > >> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > >> > > >> > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > >> > >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bulk at zaunere.com Fri May 18 19:16:21 2012 From: bulk at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 19:16:21 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? Message-ID: <071901cd354c$3cd4fb70$b67ef250$@zaunere.com> > Nothing since I left. But when I was on them my box was being super > slow. My cursor would take forever to blink every now and then when I > was coding in VIM. I called RS customer support and nobody had a solid > answer for me or explanation. I just had to wait it out. After three > times of that happening within the first month I left Rackspace. > > > > I manage over a hundred cloud instances with Rackspace without a > > problem. What are you encountering? I'm going through a preliminary comparison of Amazon and Rackspace clouds myself. I've been with EC2 and they've been ok, however, the problems arise on the lower-end instances. Medium/large work well (I use mostly large) but they're not very cheap, yet they're very often much more power than is needed for your average site. So, I've been trying out a couple of micro instances, but they are basically useless - think along the lines of entering single user mode in Linux and still not having enough CPU resources. Even compiling PHP can be a very long undertaking. So I've been in search for that sweet spot - somewhere in the middle, that's cheap, yet functional. I've been playing with Rackspace instances (the smallest one) and while the storage and RAM is of course small, the CPU doesn't seem as cut-down as with EC2 micro. I can compile normally, etc. So while the jury is still out, I'm liking Rackspace so far for these low-end sites/instances. Anyone have similar experiences or thoughts? H From ajai at bitblit.net Fri May 18 19:45:55 2012 From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 19:45:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? In-Reply-To: <071901cd354c$3cd4fb70$b67ef250$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 May 2012, Hans Zaunere wrote: > So I've been in search for that sweet spot - somewhere in the middle, that's > cheap, yet functional. I've been playing with Rackspace instances (the > smallest one) and while the storage and RAM is of course small, the CPU > doesn't seem as cut-down as with EC2 micro. I can compile normally, etc. > > So while the jury is still out, I'm liking Rackspace so far for these > low-end sites/instances. Anyone have similar experiences or thoughts? Ive been using Linode (linode.com) for small servers for years. Good value, reliable and very flexible. -- Aj - just a (very) satisfied customer From hans at cyberxdesigns.com Fri May 18 19:51:53 2012 From: hans at cyberxdesigns.com (Hans C. Kaspersetz) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 19:51:53 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? In-Reply-To: <071901cd354c$3cd4fb70$b67ef250$@zaunere.com> References: <071901cd354c$3cd4fb70$b67ef250$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: <009f01cd3551$33b20420$9b160c60$@cyberxdesigns.com> > So I've been in search for that sweet spot - somewhere in the middle, that's > cheap, yet functional. I've been playing with Rackspace instances (the > smallest one) and while the storage and RAM is of course small, the CPU > doesn't seem as cut-down as with EC2 micro. I can compile normally, etc. > > So while the jury is still out, I'm liking Rackspace so far for these low-end > sites/instances. Anyone have similar experiences or thoughts? Have your tried a SoftLayer cloud instance? I use a mix of dedicated machines and cloud instances and I am pretty happy. In one implementation, I am running a 1 core 2ghz + 2gb ram with CentOs 6.0 for a relatively light traffic site and I have been very happy with it. I am paying $61/month. If I am compiling stuff and I want some horse power I add cores and memory. When I am done, I dial the horse power back and go into production. This is after 7 years of using dedicated rack mounted boxes. The only bummer is that to add cores or ram requires taking the instance off line for a reboot. Hans From hans at cyberxdesigns.com Fri May 18 19:54:21 2012 From: hans at cyberxdesigns.com (Hans C. Kaspersetz) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 19:54:21 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <071901cd354c$3cd4fb70$b67ef250$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: <00a001cd3551$8c2b8d60$a482a820$@cyberxdesigns.com> > Ive been using Linode (linode.com) for small servers for years. Good value, > reliable and very flexible. Were you affected by the high profile hack in March? http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/cloud-service-linode-hacked-bitcoin-accoun ts-emptied-030212 I forgot to mention that once my basic instance is setup, I duplicate them. I don't continually recompile apache and php on each instance. Hans Kaspersetz Cyber X Designs From mkfmncom at gmail.com Fri May 18 20:09:39 2012 From: mkfmncom at gmail.com (Matthew Kaufman) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 20:09:39 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? In-Reply-To: <00a001cd3551$8c2b8d60$a482a820$@cyberxdesigns.com> References: <071901cd354c$3cd4fb70$b67ef250$@zaunere.com> <00a001cd3551$8c2b8d60$a482a820$@cyberxdesigns.com> Message-ID: Ha, This is the problem with using EC2 or any cloud provider, you have zero security on the top-down. I only trust physical boxes. On Friday, May 18, 2012, Hans C. Kaspersetz wrote: > > Ive been using Linode (linode.com) for small servers for years. Good > value, > > reliable and very flexible. > > Were you affected by the high profile hack in March? > > http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/cloud-service-linode-hacked-bitcoin-accoun > ts-emptied-030212 > > I forgot to mention that once my basic instance is setup, I duplicate them. > I don't continually recompile apache and php on each instance. > > Hans Kaspersetz > Cyber X Designs > > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsteplight at gmail.com Fri May 18 20:25:29 2012 From: dsteplight at gmail.com (Darryle Steplight) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 20:25:29 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <071901cd354c$3cd4fb70$b67ef250$@zaunere.com> <00a001cd3551$8c2b8d60$a482a820$@cyberxdesigns.com> Message-ID: Once I left RS , I moved to linode and haven't had any problems. Also, when I created a ticket with RS , it took them about 3 days to respond back, but when I create a ticket with Linode it takes them about 3 hours to respond back. I'm assuming RS has more customers so I'm not really complaining about that, but it's still nice to get your ticket answered 3 hours later. On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 8:09 PM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: > Ha, This is the problem with using EC2 or any cloud provider, you have zero > security on the top-down. ?I only trust physical boxes. > > On Friday, May 18, 2012, Hans C. Kaspersetz wrote: >> >> > Ive been using Linode (linode.com) for small servers for years. Good >> value, >> > reliable and very flexible. >> >> Were you affected by the high profile hack in March? >> >> http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/cloud-service-linode-hacked-bitcoin-accoun >> ts-emptied-030212 >> >> I forgot to mention that once my basic instance is setup, I duplicate >> them. >> I don't continually recompile apache and php on each instance. >> >> Hans Kaspersetz >> Cyber X Designs >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- ---------------------------------------------- "May the Source be with you." From jimmy.fountain at gmail.com Fri May 18 20:28:25 2012 From: jimmy.fountain at gmail.com (Jimmy Fountain) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 20:28:25 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] talk Digest, Vol 67, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was using AWS/Rightscale at my last job, we had a dedicated server admin who I helped out, many problems. I've been using Rackspace cloud since it was called Mosso (and was horrible) with Ubuntu 10.04 for which I'm the sole admin and spend most of my time coding. Generally Rackspace has been pretty good, they do have one serious problem. If a server in your "cluster" gets hit with a DDOS then it your site will be inaccessible while they negate it. Usually this happens for 5-10 Min. about every 2 months to our cluster (the DDOS has never been to our site directly). A tech there described it as a known problem with internal switching they have but they don't have a solution. Maybe the openstack shift may fix this. Otherwise I've been pretty happy With Rackspace and Ubuntu. I believe the new 12.x LTS is out and if Rackspace has it as an option I would use that. -Jimmy On May 18, 2012, at 6:59 PM, talk-request at lists.nyphp.org wrote: > Re: What Distro? From ajai at bitblit.net Sat May 19 00:02:59 2012 From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 00:02:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? In-Reply-To: <00a001cd3551$8c2b8d60$a482a820$@cyberxdesigns.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 May 2012, Hans C. Kaspersetz wrote: > Were you affected by the high profile hack in March? > http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/cloud-service-linode-hacked-bitcoin-accoun > ts-emptied-030212 Didn't affect me at all. -- Aj. facebook.com/ajaikhattri From dsteplight at gmail.com Sat May 19 00:10:17 2012 From: dsteplight at gmail.com (Darryle Steplight) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 00:10:17 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <00a001cd3551$8c2b8d60$a482a820$@cyberxdesigns.com> Message-ID: Interesting, well I did get an email saying my server will require a reboot because of a maintenance issue. To quote verbatim "This maintenance is required due to a software issue which our vendor will disclose to the public in a few weeks. " . I'm curious to know if this is the reason why. On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Ajai Khattri wrote: > On Fri, 18 May 2012, Hans C. Kaspersetz wrote: > >> Were you affected by the high profile hack in March? >> http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/cloud-service-linode-hacked-bitcoin-accoun >> ts-emptied-030212 > > Didn't affect me at all. > > > -- > Aj. > facebook.com/ajaikhattri > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- ---------------------------------------------- "May the Source be with you." From rainelemental at gmail.com Sat May 19 01:43:42 2012 From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Federico Ulfo) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 01:43:42 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <00a001cd3551$8c2b8d60$a482a820$@cyberxdesigns.com> Message-ID: Thanks so much for your feedback about the distro, that helped me a lot, so in the end I setup a Debian instance on Rackspace. Following your suggestions I chose the one I know better. I may change it in future if any good reason, as better performance or free cookies :) Talking about "AWS vs RackSpace", we are comparing apple from the farmer with apple from the market, because AWS has it's own (server) farm, instead Rackspace use Akamai, although soon they will have their own farm with OpenStack http://www.rackspace.com/information/mediacenter/announcements/openstack/. In my opinion, the choice depends by needs and budget. For a startup in bootstrap I could suggests Rackspace, because easy to setup and maintain with a low price (on the paper). Amazon fit the best for company with high traffic and budget, because AWS offers more tools and control, but needs a dedicated system admin and is more expensive for low usage but become "relatively" cheaper on high usage. Also they recently added Cloud Alert, which control your bandwidth, CPU usage, but especially your bill, which can save your wallet from a DDOS http://calculator.s3.amazonaws.com/calc5.html Personally I've used AWS, for some websites with a million visitors, and some personal project, and I found it very good, but little expensive. Today I started using Rackspace on a project of mine, so far I like it, but I'll wait the first bill to confirm :) On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 12:10 AM, Darryle Steplight wrote: > Interesting, well I did get an email saying my server will require a > reboot because of a maintenance issue. To quote verbatim "This > maintenance is required due to a software issue which our vendor will > disclose to the public in a few weeks. " . I'm curious to know if this > is the reason why. > > On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Ajai Khattri wrote: > > On Fri, 18 May 2012, Hans C. Kaspersetz wrote: > > > >> Were you affected by the high profile hack in March? > >> > http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/cloud-service-linode-hacked-bitcoin-accoun > >> ts-emptied-030212 > > > > Didn't affect me at all. > > > > > > -- > > Aj. > > facebook.com/ajaikhattri > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > > -- > ---------------------------------------------- > "May the Source be with you." > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkfmncom at gmail.com Sat May 19 01:46:43 2012 From: mkfmncom at gmail.com (Matthew Kaufman) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 01:46:43 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <00a001cd3551$8c2b8d60$a482a820$@cyberxdesigns.com> Message-ID: FYi, My first bill on Rackspace with about 14 instances running was ~$5,900+, LOL. On Saturday, May 19, 2012, Federico Ulfo wrote: > Thanks so much for your feedback about the distro, that helped me a lot, > so in the end I setup a Debian instance on Rackspace. Following your > suggestions I chose the one I know better. I may change it in future if any > good reason, as better performance or free cookies :) > > > > Talking about "AWS vs RackSpace", we are comparing apple from the farmer > with apple from the market, because AWS has it's own (server) farm, instead > Rackspace use Akamai, although soon they will have their own farm with > OpenStack > http://www.rackspace.com/information/mediacenter/announcements/openstack/. > > > In my opinion, the choice depends by needs and budget. For a startup in > bootstrap I could suggests Rackspace, because easy to setup and maintain > with a low price (on the paper). Amazon fit the best for company with high > traffic and budget, because AWS offers more tools and control, but needs a > dedicated system admin and is more expensive for low usage but become > "relatively" cheaper on high usage. Also they recently added Cloud Alert, > which control your bandwidth, CPU usage, but especially your bill, which > can save your wallet from a DDOS > http://calculator.s3.amazonaws.com/calc5.html > > > Personally I've used AWS, for some websites with a million visitors, and > some personal project, and I found it very good, but little > expensive. Today I started using Rackspace on a project of mine, so far I > like it, but I'll wait the first bill to confirm :) > > > > > > > On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 12:10 AM, Darryle Steplight > > wrote: > >> Interesting, well I did get an email saying my server will require a >> reboot because of a maintenance issue. To quote verbatim "This >> maintenance is required due to a software issue which our vendor will >> disclose to the public in a few weeks. " . I'm curious to know if this >> is the reason why. >> >> On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Ajai Khattri > >> wrote: >> > On Fri, 18 May 2012, Hans C. Kaspersetz wrote: >> > >> >> Were you affected by the high profile hack in March? >> >> >> http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/cloud-service-linode-hacked-bitcoin-accoun >> >> ts-emptied-030212 >> > >> > Didn't affect me at all. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Aj. >> > facebook.com/ajaikhattri >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> > >> > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> >> >> >> -- >> ---------------------------------------------- >> "May the Source be with you." >> _______________________________________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rainelemental at gmail.com Sat May 19 01:49:02 2012 From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Federico Ulfo) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 01:49:02 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <00a001cd3551$8c2b8d60$a482a820$@cyberxdesigns.com> Message-ID: $5,900 / 14 = $420 OK, now I'm little afraid :) how much ram they had? On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: > FYi, My first bill on Rackspace with about 14 instances running was > ~$5,900+, LOL. > > > On Saturday, May 19, 2012, Federico Ulfo wrote: > >> Thanks so much for your feedback about the distro, that helped me a lot, >> so in the end I setup a Debian instance on Rackspace. Following your >> suggestions I chose the one I know better. I may change it in future if any >> good reason, as better performance or free cookies :) >> >> >> >> Talking about "AWS vs RackSpace", we are comparing apple from the farmer >> with apple from the market, because AWS has it's own (server) farm, instead >> Rackspace use Akamai, although soon they will have their own farm with >> OpenStack >> http://www.rackspace.com/information/mediacenter/announcements/openstack/ >> . >> >> >> In my opinion, the choice depends by needs and budget. For a startup in >> bootstrap I could suggests Rackspace, because easy to setup and maintain >> with a low price (on the paper). Amazon fit the best for company with high >> traffic and budget, because AWS offers more tools and control, but needs a >> dedicated system admin and is more expensive for low usage but become >> "relatively" cheaper on high usage. Also they recently added Cloud Alert, >> which control your bandwidth, CPU usage, but especially your bill, which >> can save your wallet from a DDOS >> http://calculator.s3.amazonaws.com/calc5.html >> >> >> Personally I've used AWS, for some websites with a million visitors, and >> some personal project, and I found it very good, but little >> expensive. Today I started using Rackspace on a project of mine, so far I >> like it, but I'll wait the first bill to confirm :) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 12:10 AM, Darryle Steplight > > wrote: >> >>> Interesting, well I did get an email saying my server will require a >>> reboot because of a maintenance issue. To quote verbatim "This >>> maintenance is required due to a software issue which our vendor will >>> disclose to the public in a few weeks. " . I'm curious to know if this >>> is the reason why. >>> >>> On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Ajai Khattri wrote: >>> > On Fri, 18 May 2012, Hans C. Kaspersetz wrote: >>> > >>> >> Were you affected by the high profile hack in March? >>> >> >>> http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/cloud-service-linode-hacked-bitcoin-accoun >>> >> ts-emptied-030212 >>> > >>> > Didn't affect me at all. >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Aj. >>> > facebook.com/ajaikhattri >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >>> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >>> > >>> > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ---------------------------------------------- >>> "May the Source be with you." >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >>> >>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at atopia.net Sat May 19 02:00:37 2012 From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 06:00:37 +0000 Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <00a001cd3551$8c2b8d60$a482a820$@cyberxdesigns.com> Message-ID: <512847025-1337407237-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-624163457-@b28.c7.bise6.blackberry> Folks, I feel I really need to correct a lot of the discrepancies going on here. This post is a little dated, but I wrote it about a year ago and most still holds true: http://www.bitlancer.com/blog/2011/08/amazon-ec2-vs-rackspace-cloud/ Rackspace runs their own infrastructure, even on their cloud platform. They only use Akamai for their CDN technology. Cloud Files is already OpenStack, and Cloud Servers is the same platform Slicehost used before being acquired (which is being phased out in favor of OpenStack across the board). Data centers are dfw1/2 and ord, primarily. All owned by Rackspace. Under the hood, the servers (unlike ec2) are built for stability, as Rackspace Cloud targets more traditional types of customers. Their instances are not designed to die, and while Rackspace will not back up instances automatically, they will replace failing hardware. Launching a random ec2 instance at Amazon is always scary, as you're likely to lose it within a year, unless it's EBS backed. I'm a very big fan of Amazon, no doubt, but only when solutions are architected for it correctly. As for cost, a Rackspace Cloud small is around $10/mo. It doubles from there (20, 40, 80, 160 , 320, 640, 1100 ish). Bandwidth is around 18 cents/gig. If you launch a single, 1 GB instance, you'll have 1 GB RAM, and at *minimum* a guaranteed slice of the CPU and I/O. Unlike other providers, Rackspace *will* let you burst. Launch a couple 1 GB instances, and then launch one 16 GB instance, run setiathome for a bit on all instances, and see which option is more cost effective :) I have some graphs from tests I've done if anyone is interested. Hope this helps, Matt -----Original Message----- From: Federico Ulfo Sender: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.orgDate: Sat, 19 May 2012 01:49:02 To: NYPHP Talk Reply-To: NYPHP Talk Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? _______________________________________________ New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation From mkfmncom at gmail.com Sat May 19 02:04:20 2012 From: mkfmncom at gmail.com (Matthew Kaufman) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 02:04:20 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <00a001cd3551$8c2b8d60$a482a820$@cyberxdesigns.com> Message-ID: It was a wide range, with 2 being maxed out I believe, but still - I couldn't even quantify the costs. I used a TON of bandwidth and it didn't even register on my bill really. On Saturday, May 19, 2012, Federico Ulfo wrote: > $5,900 / 14 = $420 > OK, now I'm little afraid :) > > how much ram they had? > > > On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: > > FYi, My first bill on Rackspace with about 14 instances running was > ~$5,900+, LOL. > > > On Saturday, May 19, 2012, Federico Ulfo wrote: > > Thanks so much for your feedback about the distro, that helped me a lot, > so in the end I setup a Debian instance on Rackspace. Following your > suggestions I chose the one I know better. I may change it in future if any > good reason, as better performance or free cookies :) > > > > Talking about "AWS vs RackSpace", we are comparing apple from the farmer > with apple from the market, because AWS has it's own (server) farm, instead > Rackspace use Akamai, although soon they will have their own farm with > OpenStack > http://www.rackspace.com/information/mediacenter/announcements/openstack/. > > > In my opinion, the choice depends by needs and budget. For a startup in > bootstrap I could suggests Rackspace, because easy to setup and maintain > with a low price (on the paper). Amazon fit the best for company with high > traffic and budget, because AWS offers more tools and control, but needs a > dedicated system admin and is more expensive for low usage but become > "relatively" cheaper on high usage. Also they recently added Cloud Alert, > which control your bandwidth, CPU usage, but especially your bill, which > can save your wallet from a DDOS > http://calculator.s3.amazonaws.com/calc5.html > > > Personally I've used AWS, for some websites with a million visitors, and > some personal project, and I found it very good, but little > expensive. Today I started using Rackspace on a project of mine, so far I > like it, but I'll wait the first bill to confirm :) > > > > > > > On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 12:10 AM, Darryle Steplight wrote: > > Interesting, well I did get an email saying my server will require a > reboot because of a maintenance issue. To quote verbatim "This > maintenance is required due to a software issue which our vendor will > disclose to the public in a few weeks. " . I'm curious to know if this > is the reason why. > > On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Ajai Khattri wrote: > > On Fri, 18 May 2012, Hans C. Kaspersetz wrote: > > > >> Were you affected by the high profile hack in March? > >> > http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/cloud-service-linode-hacked-bitcoin-accoun > >> ts-emptied-030212 > > > > Didn't affect me at all. > > > > > > -- > > Aj. > > facebook.com/ajaikhattri > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > > -- > ---------------------------------------------- > "May the Source be with you." > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show- > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rainelemental at gmail.com Sat May 19 02:27:23 2012 From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Federico Ulfo) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 02:27:23 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <00a001cd3551$8c2b8d60$a482a820$@cyberxdesigns.com> Message-ID: Matt thanks for point that out, with your correction now I feel even more happy to have choose Rackspace for my project. I found funny that both AWS and RS didn't fix many of the issues you listed in your article one year ago! On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 2:04 AM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: > It was a wide range, with 2 being maxed out I believe, but still - I > couldn't even quantify the costs. I used a TON of bandwidth and it didn't > even register on my bill really. > > > On Saturday, May 19, 2012, Federico Ulfo wrote: > >> $5,900 / 14 = $420 >> OK, now I'm little afraid :) >> >> how much ram they had? >> >> >> On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: >> >> FYi, My first bill on Rackspace with about 14 instances running was >> ~$5,900+, LOL. >> >> >> On Saturday, May 19, 2012, Federico Ulfo wrote: >> >> Thanks so much for your feedback about the distro, that helped me a lot, >> so in the end I setup a Debian instance on Rackspace. Following your >> suggestions I chose the one I know better. I may change it in future if any >> good reason, as better performance or free cookies :) >> >> >> >> Talking about "AWS vs RackSpace", we are comparing apple from the farmer >> with apple from the market, because AWS has it's own (server) farm, instead >> Rackspace use Akamai, although soon they will have their own farm with >> OpenStack >> http://www.rackspace.com/information/mediacenter/announcements/openstack/ >> . >> >> >> In my opinion, the choice depends by needs and budget. For a startup in >> bootstrap I could suggests Rackspace, because easy to setup and maintain >> with a low price (on the paper). Amazon fit the best for company with high >> traffic and budget, because AWS offers more tools and control, but needs a >> dedicated system admin and is more expensive for low usage but become >> "relatively" cheaper on high usage. Also they recently added Cloud Alert, >> which control your bandwidth, CPU usage, but especially your bill, which >> can save your wallet from a DDOS >> http://calculator.s3.amazonaws.com/calc5.html >> >> >> Personally I've used AWS, for some websites with a million visitors, and >> some personal project, and I found it very good, but little >> expensive. Today I started using Rackspace on a project of mine, so far I >> like it, but I'll wait the first bill to confirm :) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 12:10 AM, Darryle Steplight > > wrote: >> >> Interesting, well I did get an email saying my server will require a >> reboot because of a maintenance issue. To quote verbatim "This >> maintenance is required due to a software issue which our vendor will >> disclose to the public in a few weeks. " . I'm curious to know if this >> is the reason why. >> >> On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Ajai Khattri wrote: >> > On Fri, 18 May 2012, Hans C. Kaspersetz wrote: >> > >> >> Were you affected by the high profile hack in March? >> >> >> http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/cloud-service-linode-hacked-bitcoin-accoun >> >> ts-emptied-030212 >> > >> > Didn't affect me at all. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Aj. >> > facebook.com/ajaikhattri >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> > >> > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> >> >> >> -- >> ---------------------------------------------- >> "May the Source be with you." >> _______________________________________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show- >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com Sat May 19 09:11:59 2012 From: eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com (Eugenio Tacchini) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 15:11:59 +0200 Subject: [nycphp-talk] UTF-8, databases and best practices Message-ID: Hi all, I need to distribute an application that potentially can be used with many different DBMSs (such as MySQL, PostgreSQL, SQLite, Microsoft SQL Server). The charset used in the databases can be ANY. I would like to always output UTF-8 text when possible and my questions are about the current best practices to handle this kind of application with PHP. 1) As far as I know, PHP still doesn't support natively utf-8 so to avoid problems with string functions, I still have to use mbstring fucntions, am I right? What does PHP 5.4 change about that? 2) How to handle the fact that the data I receive from the database can be stored using any possible charset? Do I need iconv functions and convert everything in utf-8? And then convert it back in the original charset when I have to write to the DB? Thanks! Eugenio From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com Sat May 19 09:44:54 2012 From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycphp-talk] Monetizing Open Source Code Message-ID: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Greetings, all! For a while now I've been tossing an idea around in my head -- building and maintaining a saleable open source product rather than doing hourly consulting. Specifically, a product in the CRM / marketing software space, which I feel is under-served. Does anyone have any experience with hooking up with business side people to refine ideas, get their input, and obtain funding/business partners? I've become increasingly disenchanted with hourly and per-project consulting as the economic pressures increase (and increased economic pressures are another reason why I think CRM/marketing is the area to go with). But, I'm not sure exactly how to go about making my dream come true and look forward to any input. On a side note, if anyone has any overflow work, please contact me off list. No reasonable offer refused. :) Thanks guys. Kristina -- Kristina Anderson PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant Skype: kristina.anderson835 From mkfmncom at gmail.com Sat May 19 09:56:18 2012 From: mkfmncom at gmail.com (Matthew Kaufman) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 09:56:18 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Monetizing Open Source Code In-Reply-To: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> References: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Message-ID: This doesn't answer your question, but check out http://apps.gotonames.com On Saturday, May 19, 2012, Kristina Anderson wrote: > Greetings, all! > > For a while now I've been tossing an idea around in my head -- building > and maintaining a saleable open source product rather than doing hourly > consulting. Specifically, a product in the CRM / marketing software > space, which I feel is under-served. > > Does anyone have any experience with hooking up with business side people > to refine ideas, get their input, and obtain funding/business partners? > > I've become increasingly disenchanted with hourly and per-project > consulting as the economic pressures increase (and increased economic > pressures are another reason why I think CRM/marketing is the area to go > with). But, I'm not sure exactly how to go about making my dream come > true and look forward to any input. > > On a side note, if anyone has any overflow work, please contact me off > list. No reasonable offer refused. :) > > Thanks guys. > > Kristina > > > -- > Kristina Anderson > PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant > Skype: kristina.anderson835 > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leamhall at gmail.com Sat May 19 10:21:46 2012 From: leamhall at gmail.com (leam hall) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 10:21:46 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Monetizing Open Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Message-ID: Morning Kristina! I'm not sure if I understand your prime motivation as I see more than one. To go from hourly consulting to a longer term gig then I'd recommend finding a code house that supports products you are interested in. Or that use technologies you want to integrate into your future solution. For example, look to 10Gen for MongoDB, etc. If your driver is income stability then there are lots of recruiters who will happily make $$ off your desire for resource levelling. There were some recent posts on the Jobs list, I believe. If your desire is to raise your income then perhaps you need to look at marketing and selling yourself better. I highly recommend Josh Kaufmann's "The Personal MBA" as a way to get better in business without the overly expensive and often pointless sheepskin. If your desire is to build a better mousetrap then perhaps getting work with a current CRM shop to see what goes on behind the scenes owuld help. It doesn't have to be a PHP based product but you'll probably be able to transfer your knowledge fairly easily. Hope that helps! Many of us are in the throes of career growth or transition and there seems to be a lot of good out there. Leam On 5/19/12, Matthew Kaufman wrote: > This doesn't answer your question, but check out http://apps.gotonames.com > > On Saturday, May 19, 2012, Kristina Anderson wrote: > >> Greetings, all! >> >> For a while now I've been tossing an idea around in my head -- building >> and maintaining a saleable open source product rather than doing hourly >> consulting. Specifically, a product in the CRM / marketing software >> space, which I feel is under-served. >> >> Does anyone have any experience with hooking up with business side people >> to refine ideas, get their input, and obtain funding/business partners? >> >> I've become increasingly disenchanted with hourly and per-project >> consulting as the economic pressures increase (and increased economic >> pressures are another reason why I think CRM/marketing is the area to go >> with). But, I'm not sure exactly how to go about making my dream come >> true and look forward to any input. >> >> On a side note, if anyone has any overflow work, please contact me off >> list. No reasonable offer refused. :) >> >> Thanks guys. >> >> Kristina >> >> >> -- >> Kristina Anderson >> PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant >> Skype: kristina.anderson835 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> > -- Mind on a Mission From rainelemental at gmail.com Sat May 19 10:42:40 2012 From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Federico Ulfo) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 10:42:40 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Monetizing Open Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Message-ID: I agree totally with Leam. >From open source you don't do money, unless you create something great, that sometimes break (Mongo for example), because people use it and need you to fix it. 7 years ago I published a template engine called RainTPL, lot of developers use it and help me to improve it, which is good because I use it in all my website, but I never got a penny from it. Is fun yes, but if you want to do money get a job :) On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 10:21 AM, leam hall wrote: > Morning Kristina! > > I'm not sure if I understand your prime motivation as I see more than > one. To go from hourly consulting to a longer term gig then I'd > recommend finding a code house that supports products you are > interested in. Or that use technologies you want to integrate into > your future solution. For example, look to 10Gen for MongoDB, etc. > > If your driver is income stability then there are lots of recruiters > who will happily make $$ off your desire for resource levelling. There > were some recent posts on the Jobs list, I believe. > > If your desire is to raise your income then perhaps you need to look > at marketing and selling yourself better. I highly recommend Josh > Kaufmann's "The Personal MBA" as a way to get better in business > without the overly expensive and often pointless sheepskin. > > If your desire is to build a better mousetrap then perhaps getting > work with a current CRM shop to see what goes on behind the scenes > owuld help. It doesn't have to be a PHP based product but you'll > probably be able to transfer your knowledge fairly easily. > > Hope that helps! Many of us are in the throes of career growth or > transition and there seems to be a lot of good out there. > > Leam > > On 5/19/12, Matthew Kaufman wrote: > > This doesn't answer your question, but check out > http://apps.gotonames.com > > > > On Saturday, May 19, 2012, Kristina Anderson wrote: > > > >> Greetings, all! > >> > >> For a while now I've been tossing an idea around in my head -- building > >> and maintaining a saleable open source product rather than doing hourly > >> consulting. Specifically, a product in the CRM / marketing software > >> space, which I feel is under-served. > >> > >> Does anyone have any experience with hooking up with business side > people > >> to refine ideas, get their input, and obtain funding/business partners? > >> > >> I've become increasingly disenchanted with hourly and per-project > >> consulting as the economic pressures increase (and increased economic > >> pressures are another reason why I think CRM/marketing is the area to go > >> with). But, I'm not sure exactly how to go about making my dream come > >> true and look forward to any input. > >> > >> On a side note, if anyone has any overflow work, please contact me off > >> list. No reasonable offer refused. :) > >> > >> Thanks guys. > >> > >> Kristina > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Kristina Anderson > >> PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant > >> Skype: kristina.anderson835 > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > >> > >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > >> > > > > > -- > Mind on a Mission > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com Sat May 19 11:09:27 2012 From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 08:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycphp-talk] Monetizing Open Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Message-ID: <1091.72.229.162.176.1337440167.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Leam, I'm interested in hearing any tips from anyone on how to obtain funding / business partners for an open-source project (and also put a note at the end just in case anyone DOES have any work lying around they can pass through). I'm definitely NOT looking to get a "job" and I'm NOT looking to deal with any recruiters. Thanks!! Kristina On Sat, May 19, 2012 7:21 am, leam hall wrote: > Morning Kristina! > > > I'm not sure if I understand your prime motivation as I see more than > one. To go from hourly consulting to a longer term gig then I'd recommend > finding a code house that supports products you are interested in. Or that > use technologies you want to integrate into your future solution. For > example, look to 10Gen for MongoDB, etc. > > If your driver is income stability then there are lots of recruiters > who will happily make $$ off your desire for resource levelling. There were > some recent posts on the Jobs list, I believe. > > If your desire is to raise your income then perhaps you need to look > at marketing and selling yourself better. I highly recommend Josh > Kaufmann's "The Personal MBA" as a way to get better in business > without the overly expensive and often pointless sheepskin. > > If your desire is to build a better mousetrap then perhaps getting > work with a current CRM shop to see what goes on behind the scenes owuld > help. It doesn't have to be a PHP based product but you'll probably be > able to transfer your knowledge fairly easily. > > Hope that helps! Many of us are in the throes of career growth or > transition and there seems to be a lot of good out there. > > Leam > > > On 5/19/12, Matthew Kaufman wrote: > >> This doesn't answer your question, but check out >> http://apps.gotonames.com >> >> >> On Saturday, May 19, 2012, Kristina Anderson wrote: >> >> >>> Greetings, all! >>> >>> >>> For a while now I've been tossing an idea around in my head -- >>> building and maintaining a saleable open source product rather than >>> doing hourly consulting. Specifically, a product in the CRM / >>> marketing software space, which I feel is under-served. >>> >>> Does anyone have any experience with hooking up with business side >>> people to refine ideas, get their input, and obtain funding/business >>> partners? >>> >>> I've become increasingly disenchanted with hourly and per-project >>> consulting as the economic pressures increase (and increased economic >>> pressures are another reason why I think CRM/marketing is the area to >>> go with). But, I'm not sure exactly how to go about making my dream >>> come true and look forward to any input. >>> >>> On a side note, if anyone has any overflow work, please contact me >>> off list. No reasonable offer refused. :) >>> >>> Thanks guys. >>> >>> >>> Kristina >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kristina Anderson >>> PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant >>> Skype: kristina.anderson835 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >>> >>> >>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Mind on a Mission > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > -- Kristina Anderson PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant 646 247 4987 From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com Sat May 19 11:09:27 2012 From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 08:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycphp-talk] Monetizing Open Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Message-ID: <1091.72.229.162.176.1337440167.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Leam, I'm interested in hearing any tips from anyone on how to obtain funding / business partners for an open-source project (and also put a note at the end just in case anyone DOES have any work lying around they can pass through). I'm definitely NOT looking to get a "job" and I'm NOT looking to deal with any recruiters. Thanks!! Kristina On Sat, May 19, 2012 7:21 am, leam hall wrote: > Morning Kristina! > > > I'm not sure if I understand your prime motivation as I see more than > one. To go from hourly consulting to a longer term gig then I'd recommend > finding a code house that supports products you are interested in. Or that > use technologies you want to integrate into your future solution. For > example, look to 10Gen for MongoDB, etc. > > If your driver is income stability then there are lots of recruiters > who will happily make $$ off your desire for resource levelling. There were > some recent posts on the Jobs list, I believe. > > If your desire is to raise your income then perhaps you need to look > at marketing and selling yourself better. I highly recommend Josh > Kaufmann's "The Personal MBA" as a way to get better in business > without the overly expensive and often pointless sheepskin. > > If your desire is to build a better mousetrap then perhaps getting > work with a current CRM shop to see what goes on behind the scenes owuld > help. It doesn't have to be a PHP based product but you'll probably be > able to transfer your knowledge fairly easily. > > Hope that helps! Many of us are in the throes of career growth or > transition and there seems to be a lot of good out there. > > Leam > > > On 5/19/12, Matthew Kaufman wrote: > >> This doesn't answer your question, but check out >> http://apps.gotonames.com >> >> >> On Saturday, May 19, 2012, Kristina Anderson wrote: >> >> >>> Greetings, all! >>> >>> >>> For a while now I've been tossing an idea around in my head -- >>> building and maintaining a saleable open source product rather than >>> doing hourly consulting. Specifically, a product in the CRM / >>> marketing software space, which I feel is under-served. >>> >>> Does anyone have any experience with hooking up with business side >>> people to refine ideas, get their input, and obtain funding/business >>> partners? >>> >>> I've become increasingly disenchanted with hourly and per-project >>> consulting as the economic pressures increase (and increased economic >>> pressures are another reason why I think CRM/marketing is the area to >>> go with). But, I'm not sure exactly how to go about making my dream >>> come true and look forward to any input. >>> >>> On a side note, if anyone has any overflow work, please contact me >>> off list. No reasonable offer refused. :) >>> >>> Thanks guys. >>> >>> >>> Kristina >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kristina Anderson >>> PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant >>> Skype: kristina.anderson835 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >>> >>> >>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Mind on a Mission > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > -- Kristina Anderson PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant 646 247 4987 From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com Sat May 19 12:18:46 2012 From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 09:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycphp-talk] Monetizing Open Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Message-ID: <1638.72.229.162.176.1337444326.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> I definitely think that marketing oneself is important and time consuming, which is just one more reason that I do NOT want to do consulting any more, but want to team up with marketing genuis and let the code do most of the work so I don't have to!!! :) On Sat, May 19, 2012 7:21 am, leam hall wrote: > Morning Kristina! > > > I'm not sure if I understand your prime motivation as I see more than > one. To go from hourly consulting to a longer term gig then I'd recommend > finding a code house that supports products you are interested in. Or that > use technologies you want to integrate into your future solution. For > example, look to 10Gen for MongoDB, etc. > > If your driver is income stability then there are lots of recruiters > who will happily make $$ off your desire for resource levelling. There were > some recent posts on the Jobs list, I believe. > > If your desire is to raise your income then perhaps you need to look > at marketing and selling yourself better. I highly recommend Josh > Kaufmann's "The Personal MBA" as a way to get better in business > without the overly expensive and often pointless sheepskin. > > If your desire is to build a better mousetrap then perhaps getting > work with a current CRM shop to see what goes on behind the scenes owuld > help. It doesn't have to be a PHP based product but you'll probably be > able to transfer your knowledge fairly easily. > > Hope that helps! Many of us are in the throes of career growth or > transition and there seems to be a lot of good out there. > > Leam > > > On 5/19/12, Matthew Kaufman wrote: > >> This doesn't answer your question, but check out >> http://apps.gotonames.com >> >> >> On Saturday, May 19, 2012, Kristina Anderson wrote: >> >> >>> Greetings, all! >>> >>> >>> For a while now I've been tossing an idea around in my head -- >>> building and maintaining a saleable open source product rather than >>> doing hourly consulting. Specifically, a product in the CRM / >>> marketing software space, which I feel is under-served. >>> >>> Does anyone have any experience with hooking up with business side >>> people to refine ideas, get their input, and obtain funding/business >>> partners? >>> >>> I've become increasingly disenchanted with hourly and per-project >>> consulting as the economic pressures increase (and increased economic >>> pressures are another reason why I think CRM/marketing is the area to >>> go with). But, I'm not sure exactly how to go about making my dream >>> come true and look forward to any input. >>> >>> On a side note, if anyone has any overflow work, please contact me >>> off list. No reasonable offer refused. :) >>> >>> Thanks guys. >>> >>> >>> Kristina >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kristina Anderson >>> PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant >>> Skype: kristina.anderson835 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >>> >>> >>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Mind on a Mission > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > -- Kristina Anderson PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant 646 247 4987 From leamhall at gmail.com Sat May 19 12:29:34 2012 From: leamhall at gmail.com (leam hall) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 12:29:34 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Monetizing Open Source Code In-Reply-To: <1638.72.229.162.176.1337444326.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> References: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> <1638.72.229.162.176.1337444326.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Message-ID: Kristina, The resources I have found most useful, in addition to Kaufmann's "Personal MBA", are: SCORE.org biznik.com LinkedIn.com gm4jh.com elance.com guru.com If I were in your position, and I have been, I would build my reputation on what I can do personally by showing the same or similar experience. You are, in fact, trying to get a VC or marketing guru to "hire" you. The more you can show a good chance for success the more likely you are to get funds or sweat equity from team members. Leam On 5/19/12, Kristina Anderson wrote: > I definitely think that marketing oneself is important and time consuming, > which is just one more reason that I do NOT want to do consulting any > more, but want to team up with marketing genuis and let the code do most > of the work so I don't have to!!! :) > > > On Sat, May 19, 2012 7:21 am, leam hall wrote: >> Morning Kristina! >> >> >> I'm not sure if I understand your prime motivation as I see more than >> one. To go from hourly consulting to a longer term gig then I'd recommend >> finding a code house that supports products you are interested in. Or >> that >> use technologies you want to integrate into your future solution. For >> example, look to 10Gen for MongoDB, etc. >> >> If your driver is income stability then there are lots of recruiters >> who will happily make $$ off your desire for resource levelling. There >> were >> some recent posts on the Jobs list, I believe. >> >> If your desire is to raise your income then perhaps you need to look >> at marketing and selling yourself better. I highly recommend Josh >> Kaufmann's "The Personal MBA" as a way to get better in business >> without the overly expensive and often pointless sheepskin. >> >> If your desire is to build a better mousetrap then perhaps getting >> work with a current CRM shop to see what goes on behind the scenes owuld >> help. It doesn't have to be a PHP based product but you'll probably be >> able to transfer your knowledge fairly easily. >> >> Hope that helps! Many of us are in the throes of career growth or >> transition and there seems to be a lot of good out there. >> >> Leam >> >> >> On 5/19/12, Matthew Kaufman wrote: >> >>> This doesn't answer your question, but check out >>> http://apps.gotonames.com >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, May 19, 2012, Kristina Anderson wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Greetings, all! >>>> >>>> >>>> For a while now I've been tossing an idea around in my head -- >>>> building and maintaining a saleable open source product rather than >>>> doing hourly consulting. Specifically, a product in the CRM / >>>> marketing software space, which I feel is under-served. >>>> >>>> Does anyone have any experience with hooking up with business side >>>> people to refine ideas, get their input, and obtain funding/business >>>> partners? >>>> >>>> I've become increasingly disenchanted with hourly and per-project >>>> consulting as the economic pressures increase (and increased economic >>>> pressures are another reason why I think CRM/marketing is the area to >>>> go with). But, I'm not sure exactly how to go about making my dream >>>> come true and look forward to any input. >>>> >>>> On a side note, if anyone has any overflow work, please contact me >>>> off list. No reasonable offer refused. :) >>>> >>>> Thanks guys. >>>> >>>> >>>> Kristina >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kristina Anderson >>>> PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant >>>> Skype: kristina.anderson835 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Mind on a Mission >> _______________________________________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> >> >> > > > -- > Kristina Anderson > PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant > 646 247 4987 > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -- Mind on a Mission From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com Sat May 19 12:39:27 2012 From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 09:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycphp-talk] Monetizing Open Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> <1638.72.229.162.176.1337444326.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Message-ID: <1813.72.229.162.176.1337445567.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Good tips! Thanks. On Sat, May 19, 2012 9:29 am, leam hall wrote: > Kristina, > > > The resources I have found most useful, in addition to Kaufmann's > "Personal MBA", are: > > > SCORE.org > biznik.com LinkedIn.com > gm4jh.com elance.com guru.com > > If I were in your position, and I have been, I would build my > reputation on what I can do personally by showing the same or similar > experience. You are, in fact, trying to get a VC or marketing guru to > "hire" you. The more you can show a good chance for success the more > likely you are to get funds or sweat equity from team members. > > Leam > > > > > On 5/19/12, Kristina Anderson wrote: > >> I definitely think that marketing oneself is important and time >> consuming, which is just one more reason that I do NOT want to do >> consulting any more, but want to team up with marketing genuis and let >> the code do most of the work so I don't have to!!! :) >> >> >> On Sat, May 19, 2012 7:21 am, leam hall wrote: >> >>> Morning Kristina! >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure if I understand your prime motivation as I see more than >>> one. To go from hourly consulting to a longer term gig then I'd >>> recommend finding a code house that supports products you are >>> interested in. Or that use technologies you want to integrate into your >>> future solution. For example, look to 10Gen for MongoDB, etc. >>> >>> If your driver is income stability then there are lots of recruiters >>> who will happily make $$ off your desire for resource levelling. There >>> were some recent posts on the Jobs list, I believe. >>> >>> If your desire is to raise your income then perhaps you need to look >>> at marketing and selling yourself better. I highly recommend Josh >>> Kaufmann's "The Personal MBA" as a way to get better in business >>> without the overly expensive and often pointless sheepskin. >>> >>> If your desire is to build a better mousetrap then perhaps getting >>> work with a current CRM shop to see what goes on behind the scenes >>> owuld help. It doesn't have to be a PHP based product but you'll >>> probably be able to transfer your knowledge fairly easily. >>> >>> Hope that helps! Many of us are in the throes of career growth or >>> transition and there seems to be a lot of good out there. >>> >>> Leam >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/19/12, Matthew Kaufman wrote: >>> >>> >>>> This doesn't answer your question, but check out >>>> http://apps.gotonames.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Saturday, May 19, 2012, Kristina Anderson wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Greetings, all! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For a while now I've been tossing an idea around in my head -- >>>>> building and maintaining a saleable open source product rather >>>>> than doing hourly consulting. Specifically, a product in the CRM >>>>> / >>>>> marketing software space, which I feel is under-served. >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone have any experience with hooking up with business >>>>> side people to refine ideas, get their input, and obtain >>>>> funding/business partners? >>>>> >>>>> I've become increasingly disenchanted with hourly and per-project >>>>> consulting as the economic pressures increase (and increased >>>>> economic pressures are another reason why I think CRM/marketing is >>>>> the area to go with). But, I'm not sure exactly how to go about >>>>> making my dream come true and look forward to any input. >>>>> >>>>> On a side note, if anyone has any overflow work, please contact >>>>> me off list. No reasonable offer refused. :) >>>>> >>>>> Thanks guys. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Kristina >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kristina Anderson >>>>> PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / >>>>> Consultant >>>>> Skype: kristina.anderson835 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Mind on a Mission >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kristina Anderson >> PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant >> 646 247 4987 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> >> > > > -- > Mind on a Mission > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > -- Kristina Anderson PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant 646 247 4987 From chsnyder at gmail.com Sat May 19 12:42:37 2012 From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 12:42:37 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Monetizing Open Source Code In-Reply-To: <1638.72.229.162.176.1337444326.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> References: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> <1638.72.229.162.176.1337444326.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 12:18 PM, Kristina Anderson wrote: > want to team up with marketing genuis and let the code do most > of the work so I don't have to!!! ?:) Investors are only interested in open source because programming talent claims it as a condition of employment, not because they see any intrinsic advantage to it. So you might as well leave it out of your equation (though not out of your toolkit) and concentrate on finding a marketing genius, or maybe better a visionary with some head for business, and becoming the architect of their own private skunkworks. But that's aside. What I really wanted to say about this issue is that I think convincing investors to give you money is a waste of valuable programming time. Build the product first, launch the service, prove that there is value (and profit?) in it... and then if you still need investors they will come to you. But of course you have to eat and have a place to live, so if you don't have money to cover those expenses while you build stuff, maybe you'll have to suck it up and go work for the man for a while until you do. From ioplex at gmail.com Sat May 19 20:55:55 2012 From: ioplex at gmail.com (Michael B Allen) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 20:55:55 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Monetizing Open Source Code In-Reply-To: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> References: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote: > Greetings, all! > > For a while now I've been tossing an idea around in my head -- building > and maintaining a saleable open source product rather than doing hourly > consulting. ?Specifically, a product in the CRM / marketing software > space, which I feel is under-served. > > Does anyone have any experience with hooking up with business side people > to refine ideas, get their input, and obtain funding/business partners? Hi Kristina, I can't think of any open source product that is profitable by itself. The value in such a product is almost always really from the knowledge and support of the people selling it. My recommendation would be to double down on whatever you're doing. Become the absolute uncontested expert in that CRM / marketing software you're talking about so that you're the go-to person when it comes to that package. Buy a cheap PC with 8GB of memory and run VMWare with 5 VMs running various combinations on Windows, Linux, different Windows OSs with different browsers, etc. Meaning create a test network and try various permutations of the package in parallel. Create test scripts to test the stability of the application. Help people in forums (with a link to your website in your signature). Pick something specific like how to make your iPhone work really well with it and then blog about it. Etc. I think a lot of developers (and entire software companies for that matter) make the mistake of doing a wide variety of things in a shallow way when they should really focus on a few things intently. Mike -- Michael B Allen Java Active Directory Integration http://www.ioplex.com/ From meghan at 10gen.com Sat May 19 23:27:05 2012 From: meghan at 10gen.com (Meghan Gill) Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 23:27:05 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Monetizing Open Source Code In-Reply-To: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> References: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi Kristina - I work at 10gen (company that develops & supports MongoDB). I'd be happy to chat with you sometime and give you some ideas/feedback. In the interim you may want to check out this article about JBoss. It's the best overview of the open source biz model I've read: http://www.forentrepreneurs.com/sales-marketing-machine/jboss-example/ Good luck! Cheers Meghan On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Kristina Anderson < ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote: > Greetings, all! > > For a while now I've been tossing an idea around in my head -- building > and maintaining a saleable open source product rather than doing hourly > consulting. Specifically, a product in the CRM / marketing software > space, which I feel is under-served. > > Does anyone have any experience with hooking up with business side people > to refine ideas, get their input, and obtain funding/business partners? > > I've become increasingly disenchanted with hourly and per-project > consulting as the economic pressures increase (and increased economic > pressures are another reason why I think CRM/marketing is the area to go > with). But, I'm not sure exactly how to go about making my dream come > true and look forward to any input. > > On a side note, if anyone has any overflow work, please contact me off > list. No reasonable offer refused. :) > > Thanks guys. > > Kristina > > > -- > Kristina Anderson > PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant > Skype: kristina.anderson835 > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leamhall at gmail.com Sun May 20 04:47:52 2012 From: leamhall at gmail.com (Leam Hall) Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 04:47:52 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT] MongoDB (wuz: Monetizing Open Source Code) In-Reply-To: References: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4FB8AFB8.5000905@gmail.com> Hi Meghan! Steve Francia gave an interesting webinar on MongoDB and PHP Friday; I completely enjoyed it and am looking more at MongoDB and how to spread the word. Thanks for a great product! Leam On 05/19/2012 11:27 PM, Meghan Gill wrote: > Hi Kristina - > > I work at 10gen (company that develops & supports MongoDB). I'd be happy > to chat with you sometime and give you some ideas/feedback. In the > interim you may want to check out this article about JBoss. It's the > best overview of the open source biz model I've read: > http://www.forentrepreneurs.com/sales-marketing-machine/jboss-example/ > > Good luck! > > Cheers > Meghan > > On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Kristina Anderson > > wrote: > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation From meghan at 10gen.com Sun May 20 07:39:45 2012 From: meghan at 10gen.com (Meghan Gill) Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 07:39:45 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] [OT] MongoDB (wuz: Monetizing Open Source Code) In-Reply-To: <4FB8AFB8.5000905@gmail.com> References: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> <4FB8AFB8.5000905@gmail.com> Message-ID: Glad that you enjoyed the session & MongoDB! On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 4:47 AM, Leam Hall wrote: > Hi Meghan! > > Steve Francia gave an interesting webinar on MongoDB and PHP Friday; I > completely enjoyed it and am looking more at MongoDB and how to spread the > word. > > Thanks for a great product! > > Leam > > > On 05/19/2012 11:27 PM, Meghan Gill wrote: > >> Hi Kristina - >> >> I work at 10gen (company that develops & supports MongoDB). I'd be happy >> to chat with you sometime and give you some ideas/feedback. In the >> interim you may want to check out this article about JBoss. It's the >> best overview of the open source biz model I've read: >> http://www.forentrepreneurs.**com/sales-marketing-machine/** >> jboss-example/ >> >> Good luck! >> >> Cheers >> Meghan >> >> On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Kristina Anderson >> >> >> wrote: >> > > >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-**participation >> > ______________________________**_________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/**mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-**participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com Sun May 20 10:33:44 2012 From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson) Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 07:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycphp-talk] Monetizing Open Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> <4FB8AFB8.5000905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1367.72.229.162.176.1337524424.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Thank you, everyone, for your amazing feedback and advice. A lot to chew on. Kristina -- Kristina Anderson PHP / MySQL / AJAX / etc / Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant 646 247 4987 From leamhall at gmail.com Sun May 20 17:08:45 2012 From: leamhall at gmail.com (Leam Hall) Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 17:08:45 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Monetizing Open Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1207.72.229.162.176.1337435094.squirrel@www.kacomputerconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4FB95D5D.9040903@gmail.com> > On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Kristina Anderson > wrote: >> Greetings, all! A good article that may or may not apply. http://blogs.hbr.org/tjan/2012/05/great-businesses-dont-start-wi.html?goback=.gde_4324043_member_116060048 Leam From chsnyder at gmail.com Tue May 22 11:16:57 2012 From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder) Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 11:16:57 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <00a001cd3551$8c2b8d60$a482a820$@cyberxdesigns.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 2:27 AM, Federico Ulfo wrote: > Matt thanks for point that out, with your correction now I feel even more > happy to have choose Rackspace for my project. > I found funny that both AWS and RS didn't fix many of the issues you listed > in your article one year ago! A little late on this thread, but another problem with EC2 is that Amazon, because of its massive consumer retail operation and global profile, is a much bigger and juicier target for attackers than Rackspace or Linode. I have never liked the idea that I order books and shoes with the same user account that has control of my servers. Of course you can and should create a separate account just for AWS admin, but you can't limit an account to *only* AWS access, so the attack surface is much larger than it should be. From dsteplight at gmail.com Tue May 22 11:36:34 2012 From: dsteplight at gmail.com (Darryle Steplight) Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 11:36:34 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <00a001cd3551$8c2b8d60$a482a820$@cyberxdesigns.com> Message-ID: I never thought about that Chris. Good point. On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 11:16 AM, Chris Snyder wrote: > On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 2:27 AM, Federico Ulfo wrote: >> Matt thanks for point that out, with your correction now I feel even more >> happy to have choose Rackspace for my project. >> I found funny that both AWS and RS didn't fix many of the issues you listed >> in your article one year ago! > > A little late on this thread, but another problem with EC2 is that > Amazon, because of its massive consumer retail operation and global > profile, is a much bigger and juicier target for attackers than > Rackspace or Linode. > > I have never liked the idea that I order books and shoes with the same > user account that has control of my servers. Of course you can and > should create a separate account just for AWS admin, but you can't > limit an account to *only* AWS access, so the attack surface is much > larger than it should be. > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- ---------------------------------------------- "May the Source be with you." From rainelemental at gmail.com Tue May 22 12:00:33 2012 From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Federico Ulfo) Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 12:00:33 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] EC2 vs Rackspace Cloud WAS: What Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <00a001cd3551$8c2b8d60$a482a820$@cyberxdesigns.com> Message-ID: I agree, Amazon does to many things, and some does it in a horrible way, like FPS, I registered my account to create a subscription payment button, and to complete the registration they asked me login / password of my bank account. What if they get hacked like Sony? Also they recently started with a groupon-like service. I only need somebody who provide me a server and that I can trust, and for now Rackspace it seams the best choice, in term of price, service and customer care. On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Darryle Steplight wrote: > I never thought about that Chris. Good point. > > On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 11:16 AM, Chris Snyder wrote: > > On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 2:27 AM, Federico Ulfo > wrote: > >> Matt thanks for point that out, with your correction now I feel even > more > >> happy to have choose Rackspace for my project. > >> I found funny that both AWS and RS didn't fix many of the issues you > listed > >> in your article one year ago! > > > > A little late on this thread, but another problem with EC2 is that > > Amazon, because of its massive consumer retail operation and global > > profile, is a much bigger and juicier target for attackers than > > Rackspace or Linode. > > > > I have never liked the idea that I order books and shoes with the same > > user account that has control of my servers. Of course you can and > > should create a separate account just for AWS admin, but you can't > > limit an account to *only* AWS access, so the attack surface is much > > larger than it should be. > > _______________________________________________ > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > > -- > ---------------------------------------------- > "May the Source be with you." > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com Wed May 23 11:11:15 2012 From: eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com (Eugenio Tacchini) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 17:11:15 +0200 Subject: [nycphp-talk] UTF-8, databases and best practices Message-ID: Hi all, I need to distribute an application that potentially can be used with many different DBMSs (such as MySQL, PostgreSQL, SQLite, Microsoft SQL Server). The charset used in the databases can be ANY. I would like to always output UTF-8 text when possible and my questions are about the current best practices to handle this kind of application with PHP. 1) As far as I know, PHP still doesn't support natively utf-8 so to avoid problems with string functions, I still have to use mbstring fucntions, am I right? What does PHP 5.4 change about that? 2) How to handle the fact that the data I receive from the database can be stored using any possible charset? Do I need iconv functions and convert everything in utf-8? And then convert it back in the original charset when I have to write to the DB? Thanks! Eugenio From bulk at zaunere.com Wed May 23 13:25:28 2012 From: bulk at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 13:25:28 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] UTF-8, databases and best practices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a901cd3909$0cb9bb40$262d31c0$@zaunere.com> Hi Eugenio, > I need to distribute an application that potentially can be used with > many different DBMSs (such as MySQL, PostgreSQL, SQLite, Microsoft SQL > Server). The charset used in the databases can be ANY. > > I would like to always output UTF-8 text when possible and my > questions are about the current best practices to handle this kind of > application with PHP. > > 1) As far as I know, PHP still doesn't support natively utf-8 so to > avoid problems with string functions, I still have to use mbstring > fucntions, am I right? What does PHP 5.4 change about that? AFAIK, correct, and there hasn't been many significant changes with this recently. > 2) How to handle the fact that the data I receive from the database > can be stored using any possible charset? Do I need iconv functions > and convert everything in utf-8? And then convert it back in the > original charset when I have to write to the DB? I'd be interested to hear other's thoughts, but the general consensus these days is "convert all to UTF-8". Is there an application-requirement-reason that you'd need to convert data to a different charset at different times? In general: 1. Raw data (any charset/encoding) 2. Detect and convert to UTF 8, clean-up, etc. 3. Store in database/etc 4. Read/display in UTF 8 This should support the vast majority of written human languages, though I believe there are some exceptions. H From rainelemental at gmail.com Wed May 23 14:33:07 2012 From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Federico Ulfo) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 14:33:07 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] UTF-8, databases and best practices In-Reply-To: <00a901cd3909$0cb9bb40$262d31c0$@zaunere.com> References: <00a901cd3909$0cb9bb40$262d31c0$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: Yes about point 4: save your PHP file in UTF-8 and add the encoding to your HTML obvious things that can make you lose hours of deugging On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Hans Zaunere wrote: > Hi Eugenio, > > > I need to distribute an application that potentially can be used with > > many different DBMSs (such as MySQL, PostgreSQL, SQLite, Microsoft SQL > > Server). The charset used in the databases can be ANY. > > > > I would like to always output UTF-8 text when possible and my > > questions are about the current best practices to handle this kind of > > application with PHP. > > > > 1) As far as I know, PHP still doesn't support natively utf-8 so to > > avoid problems with string functions, I still have to use mbstring > > fucntions, am I right? What does PHP 5.4 change about that? > > AFAIK, correct, and there hasn't been many significant changes with this > recently. > > > 2) How to handle the fact that the data I receive from the database > > can be stored using any possible charset? Do I need iconv functions > > and convert everything in utf-8? And then convert it back in the > > original charset when I have to write to the DB? > > I'd be interested to hear other's thoughts, but the general consensus these > days is "convert all to UTF-8". Is there an application-requirement-reason > that you'd need to convert data to a different charset at different times? > > In general: > > 1. Raw data (any charset/encoding) > 2. Detect and convert to UTF 8, clean-up, etc. > 3. Store in database/etc > 4. Read/display in UTF 8 > > This should support the vast majority of written human languages, though I > believe there are some exceptions. > > H > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bulk at zaunere.com Wed May 23 15:32:47 2012 From: bulk at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 15:32:47 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] UTF-8, databases and best practices In-Reply-To: References: <00a901cd3909$0cb9bb40$262d31c0$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: <00d401cd391a$d5ab7910$81026b30$@zaunere.com> > Yes about point 4: save your PHP file in UTF-8 and add the encoding to > your HTML > > > obvious things that can make you lose hours of deugging This actually brings up a good point/question that I've had. I commonly use HTML 5 boilerplate, and they too have a similar meta tag as above to set the charset. However, while developing along one day, I was seeing an erroneous request hitting the web server (from Firefox). After much debugging and bug searching, I arrived at commenting it out and leaving this note: /* This causes problem with Firefox (double requests) if output comes before the doctype. Use PHP to set the Content-Type and charset, not a meta tag. */ So obviously having output before doctype isn't what's supposed to happen, though it does, and when it does and Firefox suddenly makes double requests for no reason, it's really difficult to pin down. Anyone else see anything like this? H From ronald.bradford at gmail.com Wed May 23 15:43:22 2012 From: ronald.bradford at gmail.com (Ronald Bradford) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 15:43:22 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] UTF-8, databases and best practices In-Reply-To: <00d401cd391a$d5ab7910$81026b30$@zaunere.com> References: <00a901cd3909$0cb9bb40$262d31c0$@zaunere.com> <00d401cd391a$d5ab7910$81026b30$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: My Recommendations. I use this successfully in several multiple language projects. # my.cnf [mysqld] default_character_set = utf8 character_set_client = utf8 character_set_server = utf8 [client] default_character_set = utf8 #php.ini default_charset = "utf-8" #httpd.conf AddDefaultCharset UTF-8 AddCharset UTF-8 .htm MySQL connection (extra precaution) SET NAMES utf8; HTML PHP header('Content-type: text/html; charset=UTF-8'); And last but not least, even editing files in shell can be affected (.e.g UTF-8 data to be inserted into DB from file). Ensure LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 LANG=en_US.UF-8 Regards Ronald 01110010 01101111 01101110 01100001 01101100 01100100 00100000 01100010 01110010 01100001 01100100 01100110 01101111 01110010 01100100 *Ronald Bradford * MySQL Expert specializing in Performance Tuning, Scalability and High Availability Author - Effective MySQL: Optimizing SQL Statements - 2011, Co-author - Expert PHP and MySQL - 2010 All-time top MySQL Blogger - 2011 , Oracle ACE Director - 2010 , MySQL Community Member of the Year - 2009 Web Site: http://ronaldbradford.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ronaldbradford Twitter: @RonaldBradford , @MySQLExpert Skype: RonaldBradford -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rmarscher at beaffinitive.com Wed May 23 16:23:42 2012 From: rmarscher at beaffinitive.com (Rob Marscher) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 16:23:42 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] UTF-8, databases and best practices In-Reply-To: <00d401cd391a$d5ab7910$81026b30$@zaunere.com> References: <00a901cd3909$0cb9bb40$262d31c0$@zaunere.com> <00d401cd391a$d5ab7910$81026b30$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: On May 23, 2012, at 3:32 PM, Hans Zaunere wrote: > So obviously having output before doctype isn't what's supposed to happen, > though it does, and when it does and Firefox suddenly makes double requests > for no reason, it's really difficult to pin down. Anyone else see anything > like this? I hadn't seen this, but there's a stackoverflow answer that verifies it: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1903925/firefox-makes-two-http-requests From that page: "I've had a similar issue if the encoding of the page didn't match the tag. If the page was encoded using default windows encoding, but the meta tag specified UTF-8, then firefox would stop downloading once it reached a non-ascii character (e.g. ?,? or ?) and it would redownload the page from the beginning. This would mess up view counts and lots of other logic since the server side script would run twice." Make sure your editor encoding is set to UTF-8. A lot of them don't come with it set to UTF-8 out of the box. From arzala at gmail.com Wed May 23 23:46:48 2012 From: arzala at gmail.com (Anirudhsinh Zala) Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 09:16:48 +0530 Subject: [nycphp-talk] UTF-8, databases and best practices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201205240916.49061.arzala@gmail.com> On Wednesday 23 May 2012 20:41:15 Eugenio Tacchini wrote: > Hi all, > I need to distribute an application that potentially can be used with > many different DBMSs (such as MySQL, PostgreSQL, SQLite, Microsoft SQL > Server). The charset used in the databases can be ANY. > > I would like to always output UTF-8 text when possible and my > questions are about the current best practices to handle this kind of > application with PHP. > > 1) As far as I know, PHP still doesn't support natively utf-8 so to > avoid problems with string functions, I still have to use mbstring > fucntions, am I right? What does PHP 5.4 change about that? > > 2) How to handle the fact that the data I receive from the database > can be stored using any possible charset? Do I need iconv functions > and convert everything in utf-8? And then convert it back in the > original charset when I have to write to the DB? > > Thanks! > > Eugenio http://arzala.blogspot.in/2007/02/internationalization.html Although very old, but still quite helpful article I had written addressing exactly this issue. Interetingly some links also points to various NYPHP resources :) Additionally please also consider localizations at here http://arzala.blogspot.in/2007/02/localization.html Thanks Anirudh Zala > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -- Thanks, Anirudhsinh Zala From eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com Thu May 24 04:07:04 2012 From: eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com (Eugenio Tacchini) Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 10:07:04 +0200 Subject: [nycphp-talk] UTF-8, databases and best practices In-Reply-To: <00a901cd3909$0cb9bb40$262d31c0$@zaunere.com> References: <00a901cd3909$0cb9bb40$262d31c0$@zaunere.com> Message-ID: >> 2) How to handle the fact that the data I receive from the database >> can be stored using any possible charset? Do I need iconv functions >> and convert everything in utf-8? And then convert it back in the >> original charset when I have to write to the DB? > > I'd be interested to hear other's thoughts, but the general consensus these > days is "convert all to UTF-8". ?Is there an application-requirement-reason > that you'd need to convert data to a different charset at different times? > > In general: > > 1. Raw data (any charset/encoding) > 2. Detect and convert to UTF 8, clean-up, etc. > 3. Store in database/etc > 4. Read/display in UTF 8 Hi all and thanks for the interesting answers! The problem 2) is still the one I'm not completely sure about; in almost all your answers you suppose I can decide how to setup the database but it is not the case. This application has to work with any database settings, I can't force the users to ALTER the database charset and make it UTF-8. So should I have to read and convert on the fly (using PHP ICONV) to UTF-8 from the database and then convert it back again before writing? I can't just assume to work with UTF-8, right? Thanks again. Eugenio -------------------- DaDaBIK - Database Interfaces Kreator http://www.dadabik.org From ramons at gmx.net Sat May 26 19:26:08 2012 From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings) Date: Sat, 26 May 2012 19:26:08 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] How to make PHP apps scale Message-ID: <4FC16690.8000304@gmx.net> Hi! In case you haven't seen this, ComputerWorld published an article about how to make PHP apps scale: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9227483/How_to_make_PHP_apps_scale I'm only passing this on, I don't know enough to determine if this is true or not. David From davidalanroth at gmail.com Sat May 26 20:30:51 2012 From: davidalanroth at gmail.com (David Roth) Date: Sat, 26 May 2012 20:30:51 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: Microsoft Outlook folders being written to in the background? Message-ID: This is an off-top post. While it doesn't relate to PHP it does relate to the Linux server. I appreciate any insight some kind soul could offer. There was a legacy of Outlook PST files we needed access too. So we fired up Outlook 2010 on a Window 7 PC and imported the legacy Outlook PST files/folders. The odd thing is, we don't use Outlook on this PC at all for anything. The applications has not even been launched (to the best of our knowledge) for a couple of weeks. However, I noticed in the backup that several of those legacy Outlook files/folders are being written too. I know this because during the rsync backup of the Linux file server, I noticed they are being backed up again as if they have been changed. I'm not an Outlook user and don't use Windows much. If Outlook isn't being launched on this PC, what could be causing this legacy Outlook files to be written too? Does Outlook or part of a Microsoft Office do any sort of background housing cleaning/re-indexing of Outlook files/folders? If so, is there a way to stop this process from being scheduled? Thanks in advance! David Roth -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ircmaxell at gmail.com Sat May 26 20:35:22 2012 From: ircmaxell at gmail.com (Anthony Ferrara) Date: Sat, 26 May 2012 20:35:22 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] How to make PHP apps scale In-Reply-To: <4FC16690.8000304@gmx.net> References: <4FC16690.8000304@gmx.net> Message-ID: That article is so full of FUD and bs that it's not even funny. I mean, he points to NoSQL wins for scalability, but attributes them to TCP connections?!?!?! WTF??!?!?! Sounds like a topic of a follow-up blog post to me... Anthony On Sat, May 26, 2012 at 7:26 PM, David Krings wrote: > Hi! > > In case you haven't seen this, ComputerWorld published an article about how > to make PHP apps scale: > http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9227483/How_to_make_PHP_apps_scale > > I'm only passing this on, I don't know enough to determine if this is true > or not. > > David > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation From mkfmncom at gmail.com Sat May 26 20:43:06 2012 From: mkfmncom at gmail.com (Matthew Kaufman) Date: Sat, 26 May 2012 20:43:06 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] How to make PHP apps scale In-Reply-To: References: <4FC16690.8000304@gmx.net> Message-ID: Lol, yeah this article sucks. It is fitting to the magazine. On Saturday, May 26, 2012, Anthony Ferrara wrote: > That article is so full of FUD and bs that it's not even funny. I > mean, he points to NoSQL wins for scalability, but attributes them to > TCP connections?!?!?! WTF??!?!?! > > Sounds like a topic of a follow-up blog post to me... > > Anthony > > On Sat, May 26, 2012 at 7:26 PM, David Krings > > wrote: > > Hi! > > > > In case you haven't seen this, ComputerWorld published an article about > how > > to make PHP apps scale: > > > http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9227483/How_to_make_PHP_apps_scale > > > > I'm only passing this on, I don't know enough to determine if this is > true > > or not. > > > > David > > _______________________________________________ > > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leamhall at gmail.com Mon May 28 10:25:27 2012 From: leamhall at gmail.com (Leam Hall) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 10:25:27 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Form frustrations Message-ID: <4FC38AD7.3080004@gmail.com> Morning all! I'm trying to get past two of my many programming hurdles and would appreciate your help. Pointers to documentation are fine, my goal is to learn, not just get the question answered. I'm writing a small application to plan scuba dives. The planning takes in lots of user input and checks it against safety margins, recommends gas requirements based on time, etc. There are two topics I'm working on and three issues within those topics. First, I'm trying to build my Object skills so am using an object and some methods. The other topics, and two issues are on forms. I prefer to stay with straight PHP while I learn, before going to a Forms tool or framework. So I'm thing to set things up so that a user could do a quick query or a full dive profile using the same object and methods. Here are some use cases, hopefully they make sense. You want to dive to 114 feet to see a certain wreck. What's the best Nitrox mix for a 1.6 PPO2 at 114? What's the mix for 1.4 PPO2? You just want to go dive and your tanks have 36% in them. What's the MOD? You and a buddy want to go to 65 feet FFW and penetrate 500' into Jackson Blue. What are your gas requirements individually and for matching to meet the rule of thirds? What mixes can you use? You expect to need 27 minutes on task at 130 feet to survey the first part of the wreck. What mix can you use, how much deco gas will you need, and where's your CNS clock at the end? From a PHP perspective the math is pretty simple. What I am less skilled at is designing the form flow and logic to retain inputs while error checking and incrementally entering form data. For example, you can't compute gas used without SAC, ATA, and Time. A simple, non-functional view is at: http://reuel.net/dive/demo_dive_planner.php What I would like to have is a form that lets them compute parts of the dive or all of it, depending on what option they pick and what data they fill in. That is: Fill in Depth and click "Compute ATA". Which is doable. Fill in Depth, Time, and SAC and click "Gas Required". Which is doable. If you forget one return the form with the data you already provided and error mark the parts you forgot. Make sense? Leam From leamhall at gmail.com Mon May 28 21:49:52 2012 From: leamhall at gmail.com (Leam Hall) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 21:49:52 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Updated the dive planner Message-ID: <4FC42B40.4040708@gmail.com> Woot! Have spent most of the day working on OOP, form logic, and snacking. Only the first four entries do anything and the middle column, except for "Calculate" are pointless. The form figures the numbers if the required variables are set. What I'll probably do, if someone is bored enough, is finish up what I can do and then ask for recommendations on making it better. I know my coding leaves much to be desired but no way to learn except to ask. http://reuel.net/dive/demo_dive_planner.php Leam From leamhall at gmail.com Tue May 29 17:11:32 2012 From: leamhall at gmail.com (Leam Hall) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 17:11:32 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Tech Dive Planner Message-ID: <4FC53B84.9090809@gmail.com> All, the dive planner has moved from Demo status to actual "hey this might work" status. It is currently at: http://reuel.net/dive/tech_dive_planner.php Thanks! Leam From rainelemental at gmail.com Tue May 29 18:02:43 2012 From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Federico Ulfo) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 18:02:43 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? Message-ID: Hey guys, what tools do you use to develop in PHP? Are you using Jenkins with all the fancy plugins? And what about the IDE? I'm installing Jenkins PHP (finally) and as editor I'm using Netbeans 7.2.1 on OSX with PHPUnit plugin, I've also tried to install Code Sniffer and Mess Detector plugins but with no success (so if you know how, please let me know). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff at jeffslutz.com Tue May 29 18:11:39 2012 From: jeff at jeffslutz.com (Jeff Slutz) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 18:11:39 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm using Eclipse. -- Jeff Slutz JSLEUTH LLC 3242 44th ST APT 3F Astoria, NY 11103 c. 970.443.9390 jeff at jeffslutz.com On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Federico Ulfo wrote: > Hey guys, > what tools do you use to develop in PHP? Are you using Jenkins with all > the fancy plugins? And what about the IDE? > > I'm installing Jenkins PHP (finally) and as editor I'm using Netbeans > 7.2.1 on OSX with PHPUnit plugin, I've also tried to install Code Sniffer > and Mess Detector plugins but with no success (so if you know how, please > let me know). > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rmarscher at beaffinitive.com Tue May 29 18:13:18 2012 From: rmarscher at beaffinitive.com (Rob Marscher) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 18:13:18 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Federico Ulfo wrote: > > what tools do you use to develop in PHP? Are you using Jenkins with all > the fancy plugins? > I installed Jenkins recently, but not actively using it yet. Transitioning off of Atlassian Bamboo. > And what about the IDE? > Aptana for a heavy IDE. vim for light editing. xdebug, xhprof, and MacGDBp are a few more tools that come to mind. I have Phabricator installed, but haven't transitioned from using Github for code reviews. Have tried several different Chrome extensions for integrating FirePHP. Haven't settled on one yet. Maybe FeverPHP. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ronald.bradford at gmail.com Tue May 29 18:33:20 2012 From: ronald.bradford at gmail.com (Ronald Bradford) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 18:33:20 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: vi, git, phpunit, custom tests scripts (curl,jsonval etc) Never used an IDE for PHP, I don't see the purpose, happy for an explanation why I should? On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 6:13 PM, Rob Marscher wrote: > > > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Federico Ulfo wrote: > >> what tools do you use to develop in PHP? Are you using Jenkins with all >> the fancy plugins? >> > > I installed Jenkins recently, but not actively using it yet. > Transitioning off of Atlassian Bamboo. > > >> And what about the IDE? >> > > Aptana for a heavy IDE. vim for light editing. > > xdebug, xhprof, and MacGDBp are a few more tools that come to mind. I > have Phabricator installed, but haven't transitioned from using Github for > code reviews. > > Have tried several different Chrome extensions for integrating FirePHP. > Haven't settled on one yet. Maybe FeverPHP. > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsteplight at gmail.com Tue May 29 18:38:46 2012 From: dsteplight at gmail.com (Darryle) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 18:38:46 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1CEA4CDE-67F5-4CE9-8DA2-5C40A5815669@gmail.com> Ive been using vim exclusively for the past three years. Sent from my iPhone On May 29, 2012, at 6:33 PM, Ronald Bradford wrote: > vi, git, phpunit, custom tests scripts (curl,jsonval etc) > > Never used an IDE for PHP, I don't see the purpose, happy for an explanation why I should? > > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 6:13 PM, Rob Marscher wrote: > > > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Federico Ulfo wrote: > what tools do you use to develop in PHP? Are you using Jenkins with all the fancy plugins? > > I installed Jenkins recently, but not actively using it yet. Transitioning off of Atlassian Bamboo. > > And what about the IDE? > > Aptana for a heavy IDE. vim for light editing. > > xdebug, xhprof, and MacGDBp are a few more tools that come to mind. I have Phabricator installed, but haven't transitioned from using Github for code reviews. > > Have tried several different Chrome extensions for integrating FirePHP. Haven't settled on one yet. Maybe FeverPHP. > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ramons at gmx.net Tue May 29 18:50:09 2012 From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 18:50:09 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: Microsoft Outlook folders being written to in the background? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FC552A1.2080605@gmx.net> On 5/26/2012 8:30 PM, David Roth wrote: > I'm not an Outlook user and don't use Windows much. If Outlook isn't being > launched on this PC, what could be causing this legacy Outlook files to be > written too? Does Outlook or part of a Microsoft Office do any sort of > background housing cleaning/re-indexing of Outlook files/folders? If so, is > there a way to stop this process from being scheduled? Thanks in advance! > > David Roth Is Lync running? That will write archived PM chats to the pst file. David K From ramons at gmx.net Tue May 29 18:54:48 2012 From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 18:54:48 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FC553B8.1060207@gmx.net> On 5/29/2012 6:02 PM, Federico Ulfo wrote: > Hey guys, > what tools do you use to develop in PHP? Are you using Jenkins with all the > fancy plugins? And what about the IDE? > > I'm installing Jenkins PHP (finally) and as editor I'm using Netbeans 7.2.1 on > OSX with PHPUnit plugin, I've also tried to install Code Sniffer and Mess > Detector plugins but with no success (so if you know how, please let me know). Hi! I'm using no plugins or frameworks and only a handful of modules that come with stock PHP. Using Apachefriend's XAMPP as server / stack on W2k3. Using NuSphere's PHPEd as IDE, but also use Waterproof's IDE (free private license). BUT...I write PHP maybe a few times a year for personal use. So I am NOT the norm in any way. I just feel that once in while I need to contribute a bit to the list here. ;) David From davidalanroth at gmail.com Tue May 29 19:33:33 2012 From: davidalanroth at gmail.com (David Roth) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 19:33:33 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: Microsoft Outlook folders being written to in the background? In-Reply-To: <4FC552A1.2080605@gmx.net> References: <4FC552A1.2080605@gmx.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the reply, David. No, Lync isn't being used. I guess the next step would be to get a list of all the processes and try to identify their purpose. Auto-archive in Outlook has been off through this whole mystery too. David Roth On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 6:50 PM, David Krings wrote: > On 5/26/2012 8:30 PM, David Roth wrote: > >> I'm not an Outlook user and don't use Windows much. If Outlook isn't being >> launched on this PC, what could be causing this legacy Outlook files to be >> written too? Does Outlook or part of a Microsoft Office do any sort of >> background housing cleaning/re-indexing of Outlook files/folders? If so, >> is >> there a way to stop this process from being scheduled? Thanks in advance! >> >> David Roth >> > > Is Lync running? That will write archived PM chats to the pst file. > > David K > ______________________________**_________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/**mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-**participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leamhall at gmail.com Tue May 29 19:53:25 2012 From: leamhall at gmail.com (Leam Hall) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 19:53:25 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: <4FC553B8.1060207@gmx.net> References: <4FC553B8.1060207@gmx.net> Message-ID: <4FC56175.5010403@gmail.com> On 05/29/2012 06:54 PM, David Krings wrote: > On 5/29/2012 6:02 PM, Federico Ulfo wrote: >> Hey guys, >> what tools do you use to develop in PHP? Are you using Jenkins with >> all the >> fancy plugins? And what about the IDE? > BUT...I write PHP maybe a few times a year for personal use. So I am NOT > the norm in any way. I just feel that once in while I need to contribute > a bit to the list here. ;) > > David I'm about like David, I get to do fun PHP stuff on what little of my own time I can squirrel away. Vim, moving to sourceforge or collab.net for version control, and mostly stock PHP. Need to up my skills in unit testing and documentation. Leam From cmerlo at ncc.edu Tue May 29 20:20:32 2012 From: cmerlo at ncc.edu (Christopher R. Merlo) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 20:20:32 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tuesday, May 29, 2012, Ronald Bradford wrote: > > Never used an IDE for PHP, I don't see the purpose, happy for an > explanation why I should? > Aptana Studio (mentioned before) is the only tool I've tried that correctly colors and indents PHP, Javascript/jQuery, and CSS in the same file. You may now start mocking me for commingling all that in one file. Maybe on my next rewrite... -c -- http://www.matcmp.ncc.edu/~cmerlo/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rmarscher at beaffinitive.com Tue May 29 21:57:03 2012 From: rmarscher at beaffinitive.com (Rob Marscher) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 21:57:03 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F6EC15-CEA5-4888-A344-CD9EAD4B9DD6@beaffinitive.com> On May 29, 2012, at 6:33 PM, Ronald Bradford wrote: > Never used an IDE for PHP, I don't see the purpose, happy for an explanation why I should? After over 10 years of coding php, I still can't remember the parameter order for a number of basic functions (is this the one where the haystack comes first or the needle?) So that saves some time. Autocomplete and context based documentation of your own methods is pretty helpful. Being able to jump around files in a large project by highlighing a class name and hitting a function key is nice. Also, the on-the-fly syntax checking can be helpful. However, the downside is that most of the really useful IDE features use a lot of memory and processing. They basically tokenize and turn your code into a giant database behind the scenes. So it's helpful to have a lightweight editor handy when you're ready to throw your heavy IDE out the window. From joeyd473 at gmail.com Tue May 29 22:11:54 2012 From: joeyd473 at gmail.com (Joey Derrico) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 22:11:54 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: <48F6EC15-CEA5-4888-A344-CD9EAD4B9DD6@beaffinitive.com> References: <48F6EC15-CEA5-4888-A344-CD9EAD4B9DD6@beaffinitive.com> Message-ID: I use netbeans, vim and Notepad++ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nasir81 at gmail.com Tue May 29 22:41:16 2012 From: nasir81 at gmail.com (Nasir Zubair) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 22:41:16 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: Microsoft Outlook folders being written to in the background? In-Reply-To: References: <4FC552A1.2080605@gmx.net> Message-ID: Hi David, This should clarify it: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/269520 Every time you open a pst file and navigate it in anyway, it writes back metadata to the pst file. HTH Nasir On May 29, 2012 7:33 PM, "David Roth" wrote: > Thanks for the reply, David. > > No, Lync isn't being used. > > I guess the next step would be to get a list of all the processes and try > to identify their purpose. Auto-archive in Outlook has been off through > this whole mystery too. > > David Roth > > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 6:50 PM, David Krings wrote: > >> On 5/26/2012 8:30 PM, David Roth wrote: >> >>> I'm not an Outlook user and don't use Windows much. If Outlook isn't >>> being >>> launched on this PC, what could be causing this legacy Outlook files to >>> be >>> written too? Does Outlook or part of a Microsoft Office do any sort of >>> background housing cleaning/re-indexing of Outlook files/folders? If so, >>> is >>> there a way to stop this process from being scheduled? Thanks in advance! >>> >>> David Roth >>> >> >> Is Lync running? That will write archived PM chats to the pst file. >> >> David K >> ______________________________**_________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/**mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-**participation >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidalanroth at gmail.com Tue May 29 23:55:45 2012 From: davidalanroth at gmail.com (David Roth) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 23:55:45 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] OT: Microsoft Outlook folders being written to in the background? In-Reply-To: References: <4FC552A1.2080605@gmx.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the reply and the link, Nasir. What makes this such a mystery, is that while the Windows 7 workstation is being used daily, the Outlook 2012 application is not being launched or used at all. But somehow something is writing to several of the PST legacy files each day the PC is on. This might mean that independent of bringing up the Outlook 2012 client itself, there may be some process(es) from perhaps Office or when Outlook was installed that runs and does it's house cleaning/indexing routine. This is causing GBs of data to be backup each day that should be sitting their untouched. I'd like to be able to stop this process from running if Outlook isn't being used. Or I could remove the Outlook 2012 application, but that seems like an odd thing to have to do, because if access was needed to the legacy PST files, it would have to be re-installed and then removed when finished. I don't know enough about Windows 7 to know if I can do a Linux-type 'ps' command and check logs that would have any meaning for me. David Roth On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 10:41 PM, Nasir Zubair wrote: > Hi David, > > This should clarify it: > > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/269520 > > Every time you open a pst file and navigate it in anyway, it writes back > metadata to the pst file. > > HTH > > Nasir > On May 29, 2012 7:33 PM, "David Roth" wrote: > >> Thanks for the reply, David. >> >> No, Lync isn't being used. >> >> I guess the next step would be to get a list of all the processes and try >> to identify their purpose. Auto-archive in Outlook has been off through >> this whole mystery too. >> >> David Roth >> >> On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 6:50 PM, David Krings wrote: >> >>> On 5/26/2012 8:30 PM, David Roth wrote: >>> >>>> I'm not an Outlook user and don't use Windows much. If Outlook isn't >>>> being >>>> launched on this PC, what could be causing this legacy Outlook files to >>>> be >>>> written too? Does Outlook or part of a Microsoft Office do any sort of >>>> background housing cleaning/re-indexing of Outlook files/folders? If >>>> so, is >>>> there a way to stop this process from being scheduled? Thanks in >>>> advance! >>>> >>>> David Roth >>>> >>> >>> Is Lync running? That will write archived PM chats to the pst file. >>> >>> David K >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >>> http://lists.nyphp.org/**mailman/listinfo/talk >>> >>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-**participation >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation >> > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsteplight at gmail.com Wed May 30 01:38:04 2012 From: dsteplight at gmail.com (Darryle Steplight) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 01:38:04 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: References: <48F6EC15-CEA5-4888-A344-CD9EAD4B9DD6@beaffinitive.com> Message-ID: So is it safe to safe that when it comes to power and being lightweight that VIM reigns supreme? There are still plenty of good developers out there who don't really realize the true power of VIM and all of the cool time saving things you can do with it. Not only have VIM never froze or crash on me, but you can also share or kill the memory buffer between your tabs. On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 10:11 PM, Joey Derrico wrote: > I use netbeans, vim and Notepad++ > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- ---------------------------------------------- "May the Source be with you." From bmartin at mac.com Wed May 30 06:12:27 2012 From: bmartin at mac.com (Bruce Martin) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 06:12:27 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I use Komodo Edit. At work they use(d) DreamWeaver when I started. Most of the code they write is ColdFusion, so adobe being Adobe made syntax highlighting for ColdFusion in DreamWeaver. However for PHP it has to be one of the worst. So I set out looking for a replacement. Normally I would have used BbEdit, or Xcode, but I wasn't on a Mac. I looked at a few and found Komodo to fit my needs the best. It lets me create projects out of any language or framework and the IDE is extendable. Since using Komodo Edit at work I have converted 2 others, both use ColdFusion, and I am now using it on a Mac at work. On the PC you can extend it via a plugin that adds subversion, or on the Mac I added subversion via command line to some GUI buttons and dialogs. Bruce Martin On May 29, 2012, at 6:02 PM, Federico Ulfo wrote: > Hey guys, > what tools do you use to develop in PHP? Are you using Jenkins with all the fancy plugins? And what about the IDE? > > I'm installing Jenkins PHP (finally) and as editor I'm using Netbeans 7.2.1 on OSX with PHPUnit plugin, I've also tried to install Code Sniffer and Mess Detector plugins but with no success (so if you know how, please let me know). > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation From rick at click-rick.net Wed May 30 06:38:42 2012 From: rick at click-rick.net (Rick Retzko) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 06:38:42 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06580D9DA3A94795A9350C5FD690DB60@home> Zend Studio.5.5, but Zend nonetheless. _____ From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Federico Ulfo Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 6:03 PM To: NYPHP Talk Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? Hey guys, what tools do you use to develop in PHP? Are you using Jenkins with all the fancy plugins? And what about the IDE? I'm installing Jenkins PHP (finally) and as editor I'm using Netbeans 7.2.1 on OSX with PHPUnit plugin, I've also tried to install Code Sniffer and Mess Detector plugins but with no success (so if you know how, please let me know). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dj at waletzky.com Wed May 30 12:27:50 2012 From: dj at waletzky.com (D. J. Waletzky) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 12:27:50 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1338395271.23610.134.camel@orkhon-valley> I know this may not apply to most people here, but I've been doing PHP development on Linux and UNIX systems since 2000... Developing on Linux, I've been using gedit most of the time lately--it's a nice compromise between the lightweightedness of Vi or Pico/Nano, but with all the standard text editor features of a GUI (multiple undo, mouse-based nav and selection, etc.) with the added benefits of automatic syntax highlighting for PHP (and many others) as well as my favorite feature, RegEx-compatible search and replace with escapable characters... I used to be heavily devoted to Quanta+; if someone picked up developing that again I would be using it exclusively. Quanta+ did all the stuff Eclipse did without being as obtuse about it; I recall having to document a sprawling crufty project as my first task at a new job, and my boss being amazed that I could just go through every variable, function, object, include file and so on through Quanta's handy sidebar. But alas, my new job requires me to code in HTML5, which Quanta doesn't support; gvfs support is also very spotty in KDE applications. Another great open source editor for PHP is Geany, which could use a bit more development and will soon match or surpass Quanta's value in GNOME. I'd say contextual highlighting is really useful. Even more useful are features like Quanta's bracket highlighting, which will visually show you where your brackets, parentheses and brace blocks open and close. I don't know if there are easy ways to use these tools on MacOS or Windows, but I'm sure it's possible... even though they're open-source, it may cost you too much time to set up GNOME on a non-UNIX machine. --D. J. On Tue, 2012-05-29 at 18:02 -0400, Federico Ulfo wrote: > Hey guys, > what tools do you use to develop in PHP? Are you using Jenkins with > all the fancy plugins? And what about the IDE? > > I'm installing Jenkins PHP (finally) and as editor I'm using Netbeans > 7.2.1 on OSX with PHPUnit plugin, I've also tried to install Code > Sniffer and Mess Detector plugins but with no success (so if you know > how, please let me know). > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation From glenn310b at mac.com Wed May 30 12:54:25 2012 From: glenn310b at mac.com (Glenn Powell) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 12:54:25 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <234CC7AE-E5A9-412E-BE2B-5EBFD9CB455D@mac.com> PhpStorm on development box/s and vim on the servers. PhpStorm really helps with a large MVC codebase. -Glenn On May 29, 2012, at 6:02 PM, Federico Ulfo wrote: > Hey guys, > what tools do you use to develop in PHP? Are you using Jenkins with all the fancy plugins? And what about the IDE? > > I'm installing Jenkins PHP (finally) and as editor I'm using Netbeans 7.2.1 on OSX with PHPUnit plugin, I've also tried to install Code Sniffer and Mess Detector plugins but with no success (so if you know how, please let me know). > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation From chsnyder at gmail.com Wed May 30 15:09:04 2012 From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 15:09:04 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Federico Ulfo wrote: > Hey guys, > what tools do you use to develop in PHP? Are you using Jenkins with all the > fancy plugins? And what about the IDE? > I've been using Zend Studio 5.5 -- the pre-Eclipse version -- since forever. I've been documenting how to keep it running on OS X through the many Java upgrades since Zend stopped supporting it. I know it's crazy, but it offers the best fit to my way of working. Netbeans is Plan B if ZDE finally stops working entirely. If anyone from Zend happens to be reading this, please PLEASE consider donating the source for ZDE 5.5 to public domain so that those few of us who really love it could fix some annoying issues and bring it up to date with current versions of PHP. Eclipse, though excellent, is just not the same. Chris Snyder http://chxor.chxo.com/ From hans at cyberxdesigns.com Wed May 30 15:15:38 2012 From: hans at cyberxdesigns.com (Hans C. Kaspersetz) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 15:15:38 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008701cd3e98$9926cb60$cb746220$@cyberxdesigns.com> > I've been using Zend Studio 5.5 -- the pre-Eclipse version -- since forever. I've > been documenting how to keep it running on OS X through the many Java > upgrades since Zend stopped supporting it. I do the same thing on Windows. Long live Zend Studio 5.5! Long live the Amiga. I could never get the Eclipse version to perform. I also use EditPlus. Hans K From codebowl at gmail.com Wed May 30 17:02:16 2012 From: codebowl at gmail.com (Joseph Crawford) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 17:02:16 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: <008701cd3e98$9926cb60$cb746220$@cyberxdesigns.com> References: <008701cd3e98$9926cb60$cb746220$@cyberxdesigns.com> Message-ID: I have been developing PHP for about 14 years now and I have used the following. 1.) Zend Studio as my IDE 2.) Jenkins as CI server 3.) PHPUnit for unit testing 4.) Zend Framework (when I get the choice) 5.) Codeigniter (when I don't get the choice) 6.) Zend Debugger / XDebug for stepping through the code line by line 7.) Zend Server CE for development 8.) SVN for version control, I would like to move to GIT though I have also used Aptana, Netbeans, etc but stick to Zend Studio since it is based on Eclipse and I already have a license. If I didn't have a license for Zend Studio I would use Eclipse PDT for my IDE. I write PHP full-time and find that the benefits of code intellisense in my IDE for rapid development outweights a light editor like VIM, however for quick fixes I will use VIM. Thanks, Joseph Crawford Zend Certified Engineer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at click-rick.net Wed May 30 17:04:30 2012 From: rick at click-rick.net (Rick Retzko) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 17:04:30 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? In-Reply-To: <008701cd3e98$9926cb60$cb746220$@cyberxdesigns.com> References: <008701cd3e98$9926cb60$cb746220$@cyberxdesigns.com> Message-ID: <1C6A1540A8C34CF9809D2696833308F0@home> Maybe there should be a Zend Studio 5.5 community for those of us still happily cemented to the tool. -----Original Message----- From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Hans C. Kaspersetz Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 3:16 PM To: 'NYPHP Talk' Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] What PHP tools are you using? > I've been using Zend Studio 5.5 -- the pre-Eclipse version -- since forever. I've > been documenting how to keep it running on OS X through the many Java > upgrades since Zend stopped supporting it. I do the same thing on Windows. Long live Zend Studio 5.5! Long live the Amiga. I could never get the Eclipse version to perform. I also use EditPlus. Hans K _______________________________________________ New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation From dsteplight at gmail.com Thu May 31 11:44:34 2012 From: dsteplight at gmail.com (Darryle Steplight) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 11:44:34 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Printing Colorful Arrays In The Terminal... Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I'm writing a cron script which I'm testing by executing the script from the command line. The output is obviously displaying in the terminal and I would like to change the font color for three different arrays to red, white or yellow. How do I need to write my echo statements to make print_r( $array1 ); display red, white or yellow in the terminal? -- ---------------------------------------------- "May the Source be with you." From mkfmncom at gmail.com Thu May 31 11:48:19 2012 From: mkfmncom at gmail.com (Matthew Kaufman) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 16:48:19 +0100 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Printing Colorful Arrays In The Terminal... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://pear.php.net/Console_Color On Thursday, May 31, 2012, Darryle Steplight wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > I'm writing a cron script which I'm testing by executing the > script from the command line. The output is obviously displaying in > the terminal and I would like to change the font color for three > different arrays to red, white or yellow. How do I need to write my > echo statements to make print_r( $array1 ); display red, white or > yellow in the terminal? > > -- > ---------------------------------------------- > "May the Source be with you." > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chsnyder at gmail.com Thu May 31 11:59:50 2012 From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 11:59:50 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Printing Colorful Arrays In The Terminal... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: > http://pear.php.net/Console_Color > If you just need a quick hack and you're using bash, this will help: http://tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/colorizing.html Note that where it says \E in the examples you should replace with \033 to get an ESC character. From dsteplight at gmail.com Thu May 31 12:15:35 2012 From: dsteplight at gmail.com (Darryle Steplight) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 12:15:35 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Printing Colorful Arrays In The Terminal... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Chris , That's exactly what I was looking for. For anyone else who needs help with this, here are my working examples, with a little explanation. echo -e "\033[34m Contact List \033[0m"; <- The "34m" part makes Contact List a dark blue color and the "0m" at the end stops the coloring. If I don't change it to 0, my prompt will also be dark blue. If I use 31m instead of 34m, then Contact List will be red, instead of dark blue, echo -e "\033[31m Contact List \033[0m". I hope that helps someone. On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Chris Snyder wrote: > On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: >> http://pear.php.net/Console_Color >> > > If you just need a quick hack and you're using bash, this will help: > http://tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/colorizing.html > > Note that where it says \E in the examples you should replace with > \033 to get an ESC character. > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation -- ---------------------------------------------- "May the Source be with you." From dsteplight at gmail.com Thu May 31 12:21:36 2012 From: dsteplight at gmail.com (Darryle Steplight) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 12:21:36 -0400 Subject: [nycphp-talk] Printing Colorful Arrays In The Terminal... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One more thing, this works well from the command line, but if you want to make it work from within a PHP script that output data to the terminal then remove the "-e";. On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Darryle Steplight wrote: > Thanks Chris , > > That's exactly what I was looking for. For anyone else who needs help > with this, here are my working examples, with a little explanation. > > echo -e "\033[34m Contact List \033[0m"; ? ?<- ?The "34m" part makes > Contact List a dark ?blue color and ?the ?"0m" at the end ?stops the > coloring. If I don't change it to 0, my prompt will also be ?dark > blue. > > If I use 31m instead of 34m, then Contact List will be red, instead of > dark blue, > > echo -e "\033[31m Contact List \033[0m". I hope that helps someone. > > > On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Chris Snyder wrote: >> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: >>> http://pear.php.net/Console_Color >>> >> >> If you just need a quick hack and you're using bash, this will help: >> http://tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/colorizing.html >> >> Note that where it says \E in the examples you should replace with >> \033 to get an ESC character. >> _______________________________________________ >> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation > > > > -- > ---------------------------------------------- > "May the Source be with you." -- ---------------------------------------------- "May the Source be with you."